Iraq and their women

[lazs2]

charon... I would agree also but.... change in the region was and is inevitable... you have to start somewhere and someone had to get the ball rolling... what is being done now may not be the be all to end all solution but it is a start..

Change to the region will/would have been/ much slower without a major effort like what we have done there... maybe this taste of freedom won't take wholeheartedly... maybe they will sink back..

It might be a 3 steps forward, two back kind of thing... but... it's a start.. it's a taste.   Next time it will be even harder to control the people..

only time will tell.   I think it was/is all worth the effort.

lazs

[Silat]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Why? Because we did?

How would women not having equal rights have anything to do with it being a terrorist breeding ground?

I fail to see what one has to do with the other.

 Some of the most insightful analysis of Jihaddism insists that the Arab male whose culture requires him to be of high stature has subjugated the Arab woman to a position of chattel in order to avoid the realization or demeaning aspects of the historical fact that the Arab culture has not contributed to the world in about 5 or 6 centuries.  He therefore maintains this machismo by 2 means, showing that life does no matter to him and demeaning the social position of women.  There are basically two methods to elevate oneself socially.  One is to elevate oneself through contribution and accomplishment and the other is to lower those around you.  The Arab jihad's takes the latter method by lowering the females around him to the status of possession and by supposedly raising himself up in God's eyes by killing the infidel through personal sacrifice.  Scary culture to be sure.
 
This tends to support the assertion that one way to end Jihad's is to change the Arab male dominated culture to one that accepts women as equals in societies eyes and therefore begin to break this self fulfilling cycle of machismo through subjugation and death.
 
Though their Constitution may not carry the guarantees of equal status we have inured to ours, the fact that women vote, hold high office and attend school is a first and necessary step in the right direction.  If left totally to the clerics and extremists, women would have none of these rights.  There is also the hope that Democracy will help insure an end to jihaddism.  History has shown us that Democracies tend not to attack one another and behave more peacefully in general.

[jEEZY]

Originally posted by Silat

Though their Constitution may not carry the guarantees of equal status we have inured to ours,

Perhaps I am missing somthing, where in our constitution does it say women have equal status?

[Charon]

charon... I would agree also but.... change in the region was and is inevitable... you have to start somewhere and someone had to get the ball rolling... what is being done now may not be the be all to end all solution but it is a start..

Change to the region will/would have been/ much slower without a major effort like what we have done there... maybe this taste of freedom won't take wholeheartedly... maybe they will sink back..

It might be a 3 steps forward, two back kind of thing... but... it's a start.. it's a taste. Next time it will be even harder to control the people..

only time will tell. I think it was/is all worth the effort.

I agree with the need to address the issues in the region. I would disagree that Iraq was the place to start, but certainly it's too early to see if this will be a net win or a net loss for the West. And either could represent a HUGE win or loss in the end.

The main problems are related to the fact that Iraq was an artificial nation created as a matter of Western convenience and held together in modern, reactionary times through force and intimidation (and with the active support of groups that benefited directly under Hussein).

We have now eliminated Hussein, and groups like the Kurds, and Wahabi Sunnis and Iranian-backed Sheites see a golden opportunity to finally achieve what they couldn't in the recent past. I doubt they are going to go away or step back from their long-term goals any time soon. And once you get away from the extremist elements you have a population in general that is unfamiliar with the concept of democracy. Not everyone appreciates democracy (even if they should, dammit ), and you are already hearing statements on the street about how secure things were under Hussein compared to the current turmoil. Even a Western country like Germany, that was used to the Kaiser, was quick to abandon democracy and embrace the security of Adolph Hitler when the going got rough.

So, IMO to have a win we need a lot more force on the ground, for a lot more years. The shake and bake Iraqi army and security forces will take at least a decade to become effective, if Hackworth’s estimates on force development (and he worked a lot with the ARVN forces) are correct. In the meantime, we may need a draft (which I support for contrarian reasons as well -- sharing the responsibility). We may need to spend a lot of money and take far more casualties. And if we manage to create some form of true Iraqi "democracy" and not some transparent puppet government, they will likely say FU Yankees, here's some $80 bbl oil for you and by the way we're taking full control of our nationalized oil industry while were at it.

Unfortunately/fortunately - hard to choose which to use - the alternative might be far worse if we pull out to soon. We could lose Saudia Arabia and perhaps other "moderate" states to fundamentalism. Time to really start working on those fuel cell technologies to offset that $10/gallon gasoline.  Or maybe not. The end result might be no better or worse for the West than under Hussein with no major ramifications beyond the borders of Iraq.

I certainly don't know, and I seriously doubt anybody else does either, including those who should know. Their plan for the democracy domino effect fell apart the minute the Iraqis failed to welcome our liberators with the same open arms the French had in 1944. It’s been on to plan B, C, D, E and F ever since. So, IMO a crap shoot, with us lacking the resolve (including the Red states and BarcaLounger chickenhawks I bet, if you start using the word DRAFT) to make sure it’s a win. I really, really hope the **** I’m wrong (like I have been many times in the past )

Charon

[Vulcan]

This thread is misleading, I was expecting Iraqi boobies.

[Silat]

Originally posted by jEEZY
Perhaps I am missing somthing, where in our constitution does it say women have equal status?

You dont think we all have equal status ?

[eagl]

The basic constitution gave all "men" equal rights, but it took a mess of amendments before that phrase applied to all "people" in general, not just certain ones.

I'm not so sure why people expect the Iraqi constitution to uphold our cultural values.  I find it very disturbing that the Iranians seem to be doing a LOT of meddling and that we can't seem to do anything about it, but if they can convince the Iraqi people to trade an open culture for a rigidly controlled religious society that fosters an inherent inequality and distrust/hatred of any "outside" influence, then maybe the Iraqis deserve what they get.

[BUG_EAF322]

A terrorist breeding ground has factors.
Many factors, woman is probably one of them.
Terrorist are defenitly over testoroned macho guy kind of types, its definitly a mans world.

Yes now and than u can see a suicidal woman terrorist.

But woman are less agressive and can bring some common sense.
Woman can when they are selfconsious influence man in what to do.

I bet a mans only world has a more negative effect on it.
for sure.

just a thought.

[Vulcan]

OK this deception has gone on long enuff!



(ok shes iranian, but its close enuff)

[Silat]

Originally posted by Vulcan
OK this deception has gone on long enuff!



(ok shes iranian, but its close enuff)

Without her Burka she isnt hot.

[Nilsen]

Originally posted by BUG_EAF322

But woman are less agressive and can bring some common sense.

I guess you are single.








I'll remind you of your post after you have dated for awhile

[lazs2]

charon... I am maybe a little more opptomistic... I feel that the people really are welcoming what we have done.  I think the turnout at the election was a sign of that.  Certainly they are tired of the troops and the soldiers and the suicide bombers from the nut cabals and the neighbors but... I bet that they are appreciating their freedom... allmost as much as us... so much that they are even starting to take it for granted in some ways... let the next guy ban all elections and execute the entire congress and go all sadman on em and see how they react..

I think this thing is very expensive and I still resent the euros for not helping but I think we are doing a good thing there.   I think we should do it with volunteers and I think we should do our best to raise an army of iraqi police and militia.

I agree that it could be a huge win or... a huge loss (at least in soldiers and money) but... even if they take two steps back... even if we allow the hippies to give the terrorists enough strength to carry on till the people of the U.S. lose courage to continue...  I still think that it will be a 3 steps forward 2 back for the region...

unless you think that the jews should be our only friends in the region with the rest a bunch of death to all of allahs enemies nut cases?

lazs

[DREDIOCK]

Thing is if anyone is expecting that Iraq is going to have true equal rights as men there, it probably wont happen.

Religion is  probably the single largest influence in peoples lives there for both male and females

Whereas we in the West tend to pick and choose which passages we are going to follow and which we wont.
Religion in the Middle east is far more devout and taken far more literally then it is in the rest of the world.

That being said. We might want to remember that Islam as with most religions including Christianity. Women are not only not equal to men but are to be subservient to them.

In the bible for example women was created not to be mans equal but to be man "helper"

"a women is to submit to her husband in all ways" (heh try pointing that one out to your wife and see the re action LOL)

Are only two examples I can think of off the top of my head without looking them up.

It is our culture that gives them equal status. Not our religion.

In the ME their religion is the largest influence on their culture.

It is hard for us in the West to understand because we in general arent nearly as devout to our religions as the general populace there.
And it is hard for them to understand us for the same reasons.

So to think the Women are going to have equal status is probably not going to happen. At least not right off.
More rights. Yes,
 Equal rights. I doubt it.
 They may eventually get there but it will take time and wont happen right away. Just as it hasnt happened right away here in the US. Its taken us a couple hundred years to get to where women are now. And some will still argue that women arent treated as equally as they should.

But we are not going to snap our fingers and with a stroke of a pen give equal rights to women and expect it to stick let alone go over well there.
That just isnt gonna happen

[jEEZY]

Originally posted by Silat
You dont think we all have equal status ?

I never said what I think; the Constitution does not specifically apply equal status to women. I find it mind boggling that people think that unless the Iraqi constitution doesnt include protections, that are absent from our own, that it will be a failure. The fact is that our first Constitution was an abyssmal failure. Indeed, our Constitution as written has glaring deficencies, that have only been plugged through statute, not through amendment. Equal status for women is only through Title IX, not through the Constitution. The only protected classifications in the Constitution are race and religion, not gender, not age, not sexual orientation. When discussing Constitutional issues it is imperative to be specific and precise; without preciscion the text of the Consitution tends to be lost in peoples aspirations for what they wish it said.

I note that the Constitution does protect a womens right to vote, but that's it.

[BUG_EAF322]

I guess you are single.

im not i have 2 kids with her.
offcourse i know what u mean but against those suicidal guys it could bring common sense