Author Topic: Neo-Darwinian Fundamentalism at the Smithsonian  (Read 6028 times)

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #255 on: August 24, 2005, 08:24:01 PM »
Aw...I bet you're just saying that to keep from yielding a point.

Offline Raider179

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« Reply #256 on: August 24, 2005, 08:26:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Aw...I bet you're just saying that to keep from yielding a point.


I made my point at the top of this page. But next time you are so sure of your identification of skulls, might want to dig a little deeper. Brow line was totally inconsistent with neanderthral, I am not sure how you could have missed that being an expert and all.

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #257 on: August 24, 2005, 08:32:10 PM »
Try to make your point in a gentlemanly fashion son.  Insults do not lend weight to your point.

Reread my post.  It is a summary of about a dozen articles I read on heidelbergensis.  He was an evolutionary dead-end, and NOT the ancestor of Homo Sapiens.

Most of the anthropologists who were the authors of the articles that I read agreed that heidelbergensis is the direct ancestor of Neanderthal.  And there is a much closer resemblance to Neanderthal than to Cro-Magnon.  The Mauer jaw discovered near Heidelberg, Germany is chinless and massively built...much like Neanderthals'.

Offline Raider179

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« Reply #258 on: August 24, 2005, 08:46:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Not that I doubt the facts you presented Holden but personally, that skull bears a closer resemblance to Neanderthals, a dead-end branch of the human family tree, than to modern humans.  It appears to have a much smaller cranium, beetle brows, etc.

I would think that the immediate precursor of Homo Sapiens would bear a much closer resemblance to us than that.


Sorry quoted your wrong post above. I was talking about your observation of that skull...This is the one I meant to quote


Not to down your momma any but you need more schooling. I just finished my anthroplogy minor and gotta say that looks nothing like Neanderthral.

That is undoubtly Homo Heidelbergensis. Not only that but it appears to be the skull found at Broken Hill in Zambia. Estimated age, 300,000 years old.

Offline Silat

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« Reply #259 on: August 25, 2005, 12:30:40 AM »
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I admire the level of belief and commitment Seagoon has acheived. I think he is wrong, but his heart is in the right place.




I will listen to his point of view but disagree completely.

From my point of view he wants the world to live by his definition of the bible.

And that is just plain wrong.
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Offline Sabre

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« Reply #260 on: August 25, 2005, 01:44:56 AM »
A most stimulating discussion.  There are, however, some incredible misconceptions and ommisions regarding ID research that have been allowed to persist throughout this discourse.

First, ID theorists start with the scientific evidence, or rather the current shortcomings as it relates to evolutionary theory (creationism, on the other hand, starts with an ancient text, and tries to make the evidence fit).  Their conclusion is that certain aspects of evolutionary theory are in fact proved false by that evidence.  Behe's assertions of irreducible complexity at the microbiology level being one example.  ID'ers then posit that the intervention of an intelligent agent is a better explaination for this complexity.

The first glaring misrepressentation by opponents of ID is that ID'ers simply state, "a designer did it," and leave it at that.  On the contrary, scientists involved in ID research undertand the need to back their hypothesis with evidence.  To do so, some have turned to information theory as a possible avenue of research, and a concept known as "specified complexity."  The basic premise is that the "fingerprint" of intelligence is detectable and prove-able.  

I'll construct an example for you.  Let's say you come upon a peice of natural white marble.  In one irregular face of that block of stone are many swirles of silver gray (the natural patterns found in marble).  The patterns certainly are complex, but complexity itself does not denote intelligence was involved in creating that complexity.  If you look hard enough, you will likely find certain swirls that look like letters (english, for example, but any language will do).    These swirls have some specificity, because they can be construed to look like letters, but only in the mind of an individual viewer.  Furthermore, those psuedo letters convey no useful information.

Now imagine instead that you come upon a wedge-shaped marble block, whose shape is that of a perfect parallelogram.  Carved in the marble are the words "Cap stone; place at center top of arch."  You further look around and notice two pillars of marble that curve into an arch, with a gap at the top that eactly matches the size and shape of the "capstone" block.  This stone block is both very complex, and highly specified.  It is said to posses specified complexity.  Mathematically, it is possible to determine the probability of the letters lining up, and the stone being exactly shaped to fit the gap.   It is also possible, so such ID scientists as Willian Dempski claims, to determine if enough time has elapsed since the big bang for that specified complexity to have arrisen through naturalistic processes.  If it could not, than intelligence was involved.  ID theorists hope to apply this kind of mathematical analysis to such things as DNA and molecular machines.  A single living cell is analogous to our capstone, but infinitely more complex.

A second misconception is that ID scientists want ID taught in the schools.  In general, they do not.  They believe it is still in its infancy, and has not yet been sufficiently developed to warrant placing it on a par with neo-Darwinist evolution.  Discovery Institute, a major center for ID research, has actually fought against teaching it in schools, as they feel it isn't ready for that yet.  It is about academic freedom for them (the question that started this whole thread, in case you missed it).  They want their studies and work to be peer reviewed, to "pass muster" within the scientific community.  What they get is attack and oppression instead.  

"There is no critism of evolution," evolutionists claim, "because we asked all the scientist that agree with us and they said so."  "ID isn't science, because it hasn't been peer reviewed," evolutionists clain.  But they won't review it because "ID isn't science."  Fortunately, the work of ID scientists is making inroads into the serious scientific community (peer reviews and all), despite the dogmatic resistence of the majority.  The article that this beleguered Smithsonian scientist had the gaul to approve for publication was peer reviewed, rigorously and according to all the appropriate standards.

On another note: Much of evolutionary research (most, I'd say, but I don't have statistics to back that claim) starts from the assumption that there is a naturalistic, random, and unguided (as in "no guiding intelligence) explanation to life...all the way from the origins of the universe, though the origins of the first living cell, and to include all the diversity of life that exist and has ever existed.  In otherwords, with an assumption.  ID researchers starts with a different assumption, backed by what they see as credible evidence, both against evolution and for design, and try to prove or disprove that hypothesis.

A final note: Many of the scientist who signed the "Dissent from Darwin" proclaimation are not religious; some are.  If a scientist believes in God or other supreme creator, does that automatically invalidate his work when it runs contradictory to Darwinian evolution, or supports intelligent design?  If so, what then do we make of Dawkins, who said, "Darwin has made it possible to be an intellectually fullfilled atheist"?  Does it automatically follow that an atheistic scientist's work that supposedly supports evolution should be discounted because it happens to fit in with his belief system?
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Offline Dead Man Flying

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« Reply #261 on: August 25, 2005, 02:28:17 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sabre
ID'ers then posit that the intervention of an intelligent agent is a better explaination for this complexity.


That seems like quite a stretch for a null hypothesis.

-- Todd/Leviathn

Offline Sabre

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« Reply #262 on: August 25, 2005, 08:44:27 AM »
On the surface, DMF, it might seem so.  However, not when you look at it in light of the concept of specified-complexity.  If indeed specified complexity can only arise from intervention of an intelligent agent, and if you can point to evidence of such in biological systems (at the species level, the cellular level, and molecular level), it naturaly follows.  That is what ID scientists are trying to prove.  When an archeologist comes upon stone ruins, he/she uses the concept to identify them as such.  We use the concept without concious thought every moment of every day, in fact.

The problem with the "scientific method" as it is applied to evolutionary biology by ID opponents is that it is a philosophy, or at least is based on one, where only naturalistic explainations are allowed.  They in effect claim ID is "unscientific" because they have effectively defined it as such.  So even when scientific methods are applied (as ID theorists are trying to do), the "main-stream" scientific community label it unscientific because their definition of "science" allows only naturalistic (and inherently unguided) explainations.  Some here have said that you can't prove the existance of the intelligent agent.  ID theory says that perhaps we can.  If they are right, then to ignore the role of that agent is counter to the true essense of science, which is to seek the truth.  At least the should be allowed the academic freedom to do so.  And the notion that even allowing that research will somehow arrest scientific progress is rediculous.  As has been pointed out, much of the progress that was made before the ascendancy of naturalism was made under the assumption that a supreme being of some sort created everything.  We are inherantly curious creatures.  Just knowing it is possible to design something will lead to a burning desire to know how it was designed, so that we might do the same.
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Offline Samiam

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« Reply #263 on: August 25, 2005, 09:24:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sabre

A second misconception is that ID scientists want ID taught in the schools.  In general, they do not.  They believe it is still in its infancy, and has not yet been sufficiently developed to warrant placing it on a par with neo-Darwinist evolution.  Discovery Institute, a major center for ID research, has actually fought against teaching it in schools, as they feel it isn't ready for that yet.  It is about academic freedom for them (the question that started this whole thread, in case you missed it).  They want their studies and work to be peer reviewed, to "pass muster" within the scientific community.  What they get is attack and oppression instead.  
 


Excellent post, Sabre.

To the point that ID researchers know that they're research is in its infancy and do not think it should be taught in school until it has passed muster - they are doing an extreemly poor job at making this clear and reigning in those who wish to diminish any serious science in favor of exploiting the religeous connotations.

When the POTUS weighs in on the ignorant side of the issue, don't you think that the "legitimate" ID researchers need to step up and clear the air - or are they so blinded by the potential for federal funding? These serious ID researchers, to gain legitimacy for their science, should be just as vocal - or perhaps more so - in calling out those who want to use their science to promote a religeous socio-political agenda.

Offline Sabre

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« Reply #264 on: August 25, 2005, 10:02:01 AM »
Thank you, Samiam.  In all fairness, they (Discovery Institute and other ID researchers) are trying to get that message out.  Unfortunately, the media finds a "science vs. religion" take much more interesting, so ID proponents have an uphill battle in this regards.  Many of the news reports that have come out are uninformed about what ID is and isn't, and often there is little effort to include an ID point of view or input.  The coverage is improving as the debate moves to the mainstream.

Regarding President Bush's comments, the should be taken in context with how the question was asked and in how he answered.  While the reception by the ID community has been generally positive concerning the President's words, they have indeed tried to make their position clear.  While they welcome the President's desire to expose students to multiple theories and views, they do not believe ID should be mandated.  Indeed, even GWB' remark was a general one, and he has maintained that such decisions on public school curiculm remains in the realm of state's rights.  The message remains muted, but it is slowly getting out.  Their desires are two-fold: to teach evolution fully -- including the evidence for and against -- and to not forebid the discussion of competing lines of research.
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Offline Siaf__csf

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« Reply #265 on: August 25, 2005, 10:12:38 AM »
As long as it's research and not based on any religious aspirations. ID therefore can never be taught at schools. It has no theory or research out of religion.

Offline Raider179

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« Reply #266 on: August 25, 2005, 10:17:33 AM »
ID is a joke. It's like saying since we don't know why things can't travel faster than the speed of light, it must be god slowing them down. Its not science, its religion.

Explain mental retardation and disease and how they fit in with an "intelligent creator".....

Offline Sabre

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« Reply #267 on: August 25, 2005, 03:09:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raider179
ID is a joke. It's like saying since we don't know why things can't travel faster than the speed of light, it must be god slowing them down. Its not science, its religion.

Explain mental retardation and disease and how they fit in with an "intelligent creator".....


Now you, and not ID, are straying into the realm of the philisophical.  ID makes no claims about either the identity or the motives of the designer.  Archeologists, stumbling upon a collection of ancient ruins, cannot always ascertain the function of every structure, or understand why the site was laid out in the way it was.  They can make inferences, educated guesses based on their own experiences, but only the fact that those ruins were designed can be stated with any degree of certainty.  Just as some ID scientists believe they know the "who" and "why" of the designer, based on their own world view.

Archeology, forensic sciences, and cryptology are all example of the scientific application of design theory, and no one calls them psuedo-science.  Some may argue that CETI is a non-scientific endeavor, because we have little to no irrefutable evidence that there is in fact life elsewhere in the galaxy.  Nonetheless, the exact same scientific principles are used in CETI's search as are used in the other sciences I mention above.  Saying, "It's not science" does not make something unscientific.  ID may not fit into the somewhat narrow interpretation of the "scientific method", as applied to biology.  It is nonetheless a scientific endeavor.  I can only encourage you to read the Smithsonian article that sparked this whole thread, and also look at the other peer-reviewed work of ID theorists.  Behe's "Darwin's Black Box" is an excellant first example.  If you're into mathematics, Dembski's work is also pretty compelling, if somewhat harder to get through.
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Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #268 on: August 25, 2005, 03:13:36 PM »
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Now you, and not ID, are straying into the realm of the philisophical. ID makes no claims about either the identity or the motives of the designer.  


It assumes something not in evidence.  Objection over-ruled
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Offline cpxxx

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« Reply #269 on: August 25, 2005, 04:00:31 PM »
Thanks for the detailed reply Seagoon. But to be fair it pretty much confirms my theory that attacks on evolution by creationists are not about the supposed failings in evolutionary theory but a reactive response in order to defend their religious viewpoint.

Other Christians who are not so wedded to the absolute veracity of the bible have no problem with evolution because it simply does not represent a threat to their religion or their view of God's existence.   I can accept and respect your view that all of the bible is true to a fault but how can you really be sure the bible you read today is precisely as was written originally?

The fact of the matter is that if either Peter or Paul or any of the biblical chroniclers were in the least bit economical with the truth or employed the least bit of spin then the whole edifice crumbles. Quoting Christ is fine except for one problem. His words are reported by humans. Humans have always had a penchant for leaving out the bits they don't like and expanding the bits they do. Anybody can say what they wrote is the word of God. You simply cannot be sure of anything written by anyone whether 2000 years ago or yesterday. Frankly that includes the bible.

Unfortunately there can be no accomodation between your view of absolute certainty and that of evolution. Evolution is subject to all the rigours of scientific scrutiny. Creationism is above criticism. If your are to be honest with yourself, your opposition to evolution is nothing to do with the supposed flaws of evolution but all to do with the threat is presents to your religion.

As such, any attacks by creationists on evolution simply lack credibility. It is quite ironic that creationists use science itself to attack science.

As for ID, it is nothing more than junk science. While it has no attractions for creationists for the same reason as evolution. It does have certain attractions for those people who believe in a deity of sorts.  ID by it's nature implies that someone or something gives evolution a push. Someone powerful and intelligent.

It's all very well saying that many scientists who support ID are not religious. But mahy people who do not follow organised religion still believe in God. That includes scientists.

Quite simply ID in it's essence is supposed to prove by supposed scientific method that a God exists. Many people over the years have tried to prove the existence of God by scientific means or otherwise. This is just another attempt.

That is why it is attractive to many people. It's also it's biggest flaw.