Author Topic: Neo-Darwinian Fundamentalism at the Smithsonian  (Read 6014 times)

Offline Sabre

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« Reply #330 on: August 31, 2005, 04:19:28 PM »
Samiam: Sorry, but in this day and age of instant information access, you need to do better.  Look here to see the history of SETI.

http://history.nasa.gov/garber.pdf

The one-paragraph intro (below) does a good job of summing it up.  However, I encourage you to read the entire PDF, is it says quite clearly and often that many scientist accepted that this was a scientifically sound program.  The manner in which it was attacked was not unlike what we see happening today in the evolution-ID debate.

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On Columbus Day, 1992, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) formally initiated a radio astronomy program called SETI (Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence).  Less than a year later, Congress abruptly cancelled the program.  Why? While there was and still is debate over the likelihood of finding intelligent extraterrestrial life, virtually all informed parties agreed that the SETI program constituted worthwhile, valid science.  Yet, fervor over the federal budget deficit, lack of support from other scientists and aerospace contractors and a significant history of unfounded associations with nonscientific elements combined with bad timing in fall 1993 to make the program an easy target to eliminate.  Thus SETI was a relative anomaly in terms of a small, scientifically valid program that was canceled for political expediency.



And then there’s this, from NASA’s Origins project…

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Born of the extraordinary accomplishments of 20th century physics, astronomy, geology, and biology, the Origins program takes up the challenge of answering questions as old as our species. When Galileo first turned his tiny telescope to the night sky, he saw the Milky Way resolved into millions of stars, in one stroke expanding our grasp of the universe to a scale that had not been imagined from the sight of eyes alone. The growth of scientific culture and tools over the next three centuries revealed a vast realm, each at-first-incomprehensible discovery assimilated into an increasingly uncomfortable reality. The eruptive growth of 20th century astronomy has brought us an appreciation of how vast, old, and unearthly the universe is, and has left humanity struggling for a sense of our own significance consistent with the reality of who and what we are. But science has also given us something that will help, by promising answers to our ancient questions: Where did we come from? Are we alone? When the answers to these questions are known, our civilizations will evolve new visions of who we are and what our futures might be. Already we have learned enough to appreciate that the universe is enormous and ancient, but life tiny and transient is its precious jewel.


Your tax payer dollars at work.

Getting back to the rest of my post, I also mentioned three other scientific disciplines which you chose to ignore, going for what you thought would be a “quick kill” response.

Lothar: I can only tell you that I, as a Christian, would absolutely fight any attempt to purge evolutionary concepts from the science classroom.  I completely disagree that the "how" would suffer, for reasons I've pointed out already.  In the end, it's about keeping an open mind, and allowing academic freedom to explore all alternatives.  I've read a lot from both sides, and discussed it extensively with others of both minds.  My own experience has been quite different from yours, though I'll admit there are extremists in either camp.  Thanks for the thoughtful comments.
Sabre
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Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #331 on: August 31, 2005, 05:10:26 PM »
Does anyone remember the main theme of Arthur C. Clarke's "2001:  A Space Odyssey"?

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #332 on: August 31, 2005, 05:32:14 PM »
Thus Spake Zarathustra

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #333 on: August 31, 2005, 05:35:49 PM »
sweethearte' Midnight.

Just between us old farts...you KNEW what I meant!

;)

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #334 on: August 31, 2005, 05:38:24 PM »
I won't tell if you won't.

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #335 on: August 31, 2005, 05:44:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Does anyone remember the main theme of Arthur C. Clarke's "2001:  A Space Odyssey"?


It's Wagner, IIRC.

Doh... It's Strauss.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2005, 05:46:56 PM by Sandman »
sand

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #336 on: August 31, 2005, 05:47:23 PM »
Lot of mafia types on the bbs today.

Offline FalconSix

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« Reply #337 on: August 31, 2005, 06:05:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Simaril
Love to see any references you have to actual scientists actually being burned....


Stop putting words in my mouth you liar.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #338 on: August 31, 2005, 06:25:36 PM »
"Alzo Sprach Zarathustra" -- Richard Strauss

"The Blue Danube" was the space docking scene... not the same Strauss.
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Offline Simaril

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« Reply #339 on: August 31, 2005, 06:39:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
How about after being convicted of heresy, being forced to stifle the truth and placed on house arrest for the rest of his life under threat of worse?

"But it does move"  Galileo

But you wanted references to an actual burning....

How about

  Giordano Bruno




No argument that the time was not generally open to new ideas. However, using for convenience the article you referenced, Dr. Bruno was repeatedly excluded from academic postions due to his academic beliefs going out of vogue. As this thread topic itself demonstrates, that is an occupational risk even now for academics. Less controversial beliefs can also make one persona non grata, as the recent experience of Harvard's president shows. (He had the incredible lack of PC savvy to raise as a topic for discussion the body of evidence implying that male and female brains may have statistically differnt strengths).




Also using your article, it appears clear that Dr. Bruno was killed for religious heresy, not for his scientific beliefs.

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Although the actual charge against Bruno was docetism, adherence to the doctrine that Jesus did not actually have a physical body and that his physical presence was an illusion, the world of science has long claimed Bruno as a martyr.



This of course in no way justifies his murder for religious dissent -- but it does bring into question his being killed for scientific rigor.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2005, 06:51:08 PM by Simaril »
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Offline Simaril

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« Reply #340 on: August 31, 2005, 06:48:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FalconSix
Stop putting words in my mouth you liar.




Take a chill pill, dude.

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Originally posted by FalconSix ...snip....
During the Dark Ages of Christian church rule in Europe science was outlawed as heresy and scientists persecuted as witches.
...snip....



I read your post, and didnt reread after typing mine. Since the standard "treatment" for witches in the middle ages was burning at the stake, I inadvertantly must have thought I read a phrase that wasnt there.

BUT you gotta admit, the stake sure was implied, and calling me a liar is... a bit unenlightened....in context. I in no way changed the meaning of your claim.


In fact, I let the silliness about "science being outlawed" slide right on by.
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Offline FalconSix

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« Reply #341 on: August 31, 2005, 07:20:16 PM »
The Hispanic ascetic Priscillian of Avila was the first person to be executed for heresy, only sixty years after the First Council of Nicaea, in 385. He was executed at the orders of Emperor Magnus Maximus, over the procedural objections of bishops Ambrose of Milan and Martin of Tours, who claimed the Churches' right to punish its own.

Over the years, numerous Christian scholars and preachers have disagreed with the Church on various issues or doctrines. When the Church has become aware of these beliefs, they have been condemned as heretical, and with the East-West Schism finalized in the 11th century, and the split in the Western Church in the 16th, each section has identified the others as "heretical". Historically, this often happened when the belief challenged, or was seen to challenge, Church authority, or drew a movement of followers who challenged the established order socially. For entirely secular reasons, some influential people have had an interest in maintaining the status quo or condemning a group they wished to be removed. The Church's internal explanations for its actions were based purely on objection to beliefs and philosophies that ran contrary to its interpretation of the holy scriptures and its official interpretation of holy tradition.

The penalty for a baptized Catholic above the age of 18 who obstinately, publicly, and voluntarily manifests his or her adherence to an objective heresy is automatic excommunication ("latae sententiae) according to Can. 1364 par.1 C.I.C..

A belief that the church has not directly rejected, or that is at variance with less important church teachings, is given the label, sententia haeresi proxima, meaning "opinion approaching heresy." A theological argument, belief, or theory that does not constitute heresy in itself, but which leads to conclusions which might be held to do so, is termed propositio theologice erronea, or "erroneous theological proposition." Finally, if the theological position only suggests but does not necessarily lead to a doctrinal conflict, it might be given the even milder label of sententia de haeresi suspecta, haeresim sapiens, meaning "opinion suspected, or savoring, of heresy."

Some significant controversies of doctrine have risen over the course of history. At times there have been many heresies over single points of doctrine, particularly in regards to the nature of the Trinity, the doctrine of transubstantiation and the immaculate conception.

The Church has always fought in favor of orthodoxy and the Pope's authority as the successor of St. Peter to determine truth. At various times in history, it has had varying degrees of power to resist or punish heretics, once it had defined them.

In the early church, heresies were sometimes determined by a selected council of bishops, or ecumenical council, such as the First Council of Nicaea. The orthodox position was established at the council, and all who failed to adhere to it would thereafter be considered heretics. The church had little power to actually punish heretics in the early years, other than by excommunication, a spiritual punishment, or, as in the case of Arius, assassination. To those who accepted it, an excommunication was the worst form of punishment possible, as it separated the individual from the body of Christ, his Church, and prevented salvation. Excommunication, or even the threat of excommunication, was enough to convince many a heretic to renounce his views. Priscillian achieved the distinction of becoming the first Christian burned alive for heresy in 385 at Treves.

In later years, the Church instituted the Inquisition, an official body charged with the suppression of heresy. The Inquisition was active in several nations of Europe, particularly where it had fervent support from the civil authority. The Albigensian Crusade (1209-1229) was part of the Roman Catholic Church's efforts to crush the Cathars. It is linked to the movement now known as the Medieval Inquisition. The Spanish Inquisition was particularly brutal in its methods, which included the burning at the stake of many heretics. However, it was initiated and substantially controlled by King Ferdinand of Spain rather than the Church; King Ferdinand used political leverage to obtain the Church's tacit approval. Another example of a medieval heretic (according to some, proto-protestant) movement is the Hussite movement in the Czech lands in the early 1400s.

It is widely reported that the last person to be burned alive at the stake on orders from Rome was Giordano Bruno, executed in 1600 for a collection of heretical beliefs including Copernicanism and (probably more important) an unlimited universe with innumerable inhabited worlds. The last case of an execution at an auto de fe by the Spanish Inquisition was the schoolmaster Cayetano Ripoll, accused of deism and executed by garroting July 26, 1826 in Valencia after a two-year trial.

Offline Simaril

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« Reply #342 on: August 31, 2005, 09:54:14 PM »
Nice cut and paste skills, and I suppose there is a point beyond general anti-catholicism....I suppose.....   :huh



The middle ages were jsut barely past the barbarian eras. Europeans before christianity sacrificed their kids and buried them at the cornerstones of city walls. Enemies skulls were prominently displayed over doorframes in Celtic lands. These were bad things.


Hurting people because of their religion is bad.  Hurting people because they disagree with you is bad. Neither can be supported by christian principles or doctrine (and if you are honestly interested I can support that with references --). Bad people can call themselves christians, and bad people can get leadership roles in organizations.





If your hope is to somehow prove that christianity is the source of all evil, you're gunna have a tough row to hoe.


Does the existance of Al Sharpton and George Wallace prove that the Democratic Party is evil? They are/were leaders of the Democratic party! You Democrats need to justify their positions!

Pretty rediculous, eh.

Why do materialists use the same logic aginst christianity????
« Last Edit: August 31, 2005, 10:05:35 PM by Simaril »
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Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #343 on: August 31, 2005, 10:49:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Simaril
...
Also using your article, it appears clear that Dr. Bruno was killed for religious heresy, not for his scientific beliefs.  


After some more investigation,  it appears we do not know the exact grounds on which he was declared a heretic because his file is missing from the records.

However the treatment of Galileo wasn't the best.
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Offline FalconSix

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« Reply #344 on: September 01, 2005, 02:22:38 AM »
Aristotle had placed the Earth at the centre of the universe, not because it was the most important place, but because it was the coldest, most impure place in the cosmos and it would therefore fall as far as it could - to the centre. The celestial bodies were made out of a very pure and perfect element and travelled on the surface of spheres, the most perfect geometric shape.

The mediaeval Church adopted this system, and for Christians the Earth was central as being of the place of the cosmos’ salvation. Not surprisingly astronomical observation of the planets fitted only erratically with this Earth-centred (geocentric) scheme and complicated explanations were devised to overcome these anomalies. These were refinements on Ptolemy’s system (2nd Century CE). In the 1530s the Polish mathematician Nicolaus Copernicus began to challenge the Ptolemaic model and suggest a sun-centred (heliocentric) model; this was only published as Copernicus was dying (in his great book De Revolutionibus of 1543).

There followed a period of what T.S.Kuhn has called ‘paradigm shift,’ a crisis in the (newly developing) scientific community, in which two radically different models were in competition.Nor was it clear that Copernicus was right - his circular orbits gave no better fit than its best geocentric competitor - that of the Imperial mathematician Tycho Brahe. This is because the planetary orbits are in fact ellipses, a model first proposed by Johannes Kepler (1571-1630), who was one of the very few thinkers other than Galileo to adopt Copernicanism before 1600.

Wonder why? Giordano Bruno was executed for a collection of heretical beliefs including Copernicanism.