Author Topic: Neo-Darwinian Fundamentalism at the Smithsonian  (Read 6015 times)

Offline Hangtime

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Neo-Darwinian Fundamentalism at the Smithsonian
« Reply #60 on: August 20, 2005, 01:16:44 AM »
Intelligent design's doubt: Is evolution the full story?
August 14, 2005

The question posed by intelligent design is not whether evolution is true, but how much it can explain.

Michael Behe, one of the idea's main proponents, is a biologist and accepts that humans are part of an evolutionary tree that dates back billions of years and includes everything from apes to mold. But he has argued, beginning with his 1996 book Darwin's Black Box, that evolution cannot explain all the complexity of life.

Darwinian evolution works by variation and natural selection. DNA encodes the information that serves as the blueprint for an animal. Occasionally there are mutations in this DNA, and sexual reproduction brings the characteristics of parents together in new combinations. From this variation, the individuals that are best suited to their environment prosper and pass their characteristics to their offspring. Over millions of years, small advantages accumulate into dramatic changes -- examples of which fill the scientific literature. For example, there is a detailed fossil record of horses, and they adapted to shifting environments over 55 million years.

Behe, however, argues that Darwinian evolution cannot explain what he terms ''irreducible complexity." There are many systems in the cell that contain multiple parts, but that don't work if any of the parts is removed.

Such systems, he argues, are unlikely to come about through evolution because the pieces would have to appear all at once to give the creature a selective advantage.

Behe cites as one example the flagellum, an elaborate structure that works like a biological motor and that helps some organisms move. Behe uses the analogy of a mousetrap, with a base, a spring, and a hammer. None of the pieces would evolve alone, because they are useless alone. It is thus very hard to imagine how a mousetrap could have evolved through small changes, each of which had conferred some advantage. A mousetrap is thus ''irreducibly complex."

Almost all biologists dismiss intelligent design. Many of its supporters, scientists argue, are using intelligent design to promote a political and religious agenda: undermining the teaching of evolution, despite the overwhelming evidence that supports it.

Intelligent design also does not say what the designer is, making it difficult to test the idea.

Critics of intelligent design say that evolution can produce the kinds of systems that Behe calls irreducibly complex. To use the mousetrap analogy, the spring, hammer, and platform may have each evolved on their own to perform some other, different, function and then been brought together to perform a new one -- catching mice. There is evidence, for example, that parts of the flagellum evolved for other purposes.

Behe said such alternative explanations for irreducible complexity, based in evolutionary theory, are possible. But he has said that nobody has proven, to his satisfaction, that this has ever happened.

Many people misunderstand what intelligent design and evolution have to say about religion. Neither proves or disproves the existence of God.

Even if it were accepted that evolution had been assisted by some designer, intelligent design cannot say who or what the designer is. And for all that Darwin's theory of evolution can explain, it does not explain how the universe began, or describe forces that act outside the material realm that is the domain of science.

GARETH COOK

© Copyright 2005 Globe Newspaper Company.
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Offline Vulcan

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Neo-Darwinian Fundamentalism at the Smithsonian
« Reply #61 on: August 20, 2005, 01:17:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vulcan
Deleted.

4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated.


And posting statements of fact that are not fact are ok?

Offline Hangtime

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Neo-Darwinian Fundamentalism at the Smithsonian
« Reply #62 on: August 20, 2005, 01:34:16 AM »
Nash, it would seem that evoloution explains species development. The origin of species is entirely up in the air.

Intelligent Desigin is simply another postulation offered to caulk the gaps that evolution as we know it obviously can't explain.

In other words, as always, all the new facts don't jive with what the last commonly accepted theory postulated, and we're just getting to a new point where the scientific community is simply revamping what the legitimate questions are. They ain't even close to figuring out what the answers are.
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Offline Suave

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Neo-Darwinian Fundamentalism at the Smithsonian
« Reply #63 on: August 20, 2005, 01:35:05 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
And as it's been pointed out to ME many times.  People KNEW the world was flat for many years.  Until Colombus


Galileo theorized that the earth was round, he was found guilty of heresy for contradicting the bible.

"The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church."
 -Ferdinand Magellan
« Last Edit: August 20, 2005, 01:38:49 AM by Suave »

Offline SaburoS

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Neo-Darwinian Fundamentalism at the Smithsonian
« Reply #64 on: August 20, 2005, 01:38:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vulcan
And posting statements of fact that are not fact are ok?

Sure, happens all the time ;)
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Offline Nash

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Neo-Darwinian Fundamentalism at the Smithsonian
« Reply #65 on: August 20, 2005, 01:48:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
Nash, it would seem that evoloution explains species development. The origin of species is entirely up in the air.

Intelligent Desigin is simply another postulation offered to caulk the gaps that evolution as we know it obviously can't explain.

In other words, as always, all the new facts don't jive with what the last commonly accepted theory postulated, and we're just getting to a new point where the scientific community is simply revamping what the legitimate questions are. They ain't even close to figuring out what the answers are.


Thanks for the summary. I thought for a minute there that I was losing my mind. :)

I'm gonna resort back to the basic simple fact: Science is a method, a way of discovery. Scientists can't explain everything, and they aren't as pompous as to think that they can.

They look at some evidence, and make an assumption based on it. That will lead to new areas of thought. Some other peice of evidence will be found based on that earlier assumption, and may very well prove that earlier theory wrong.... leading to a new direction.....

And so it goes.

It may be science - but nobody said it was clean.

The diference is....  Science tells you to keep looking. Intelligent Design tells you to stop.

Offline SaburoS

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« Reply #66 on: August 20, 2005, 01:59:40 AM »
Thought it used to be "scientific fact" long ago that the "scientific" thinking was that God existed as a matter of "fact."
Those that went against the held ideals of the time were thought to be "infidels" for thinking such sacrilegious thoughts. The "science" of the time revolved around religion. Some dared think outside the established box and expanded science towards what it is today. It is continually evolving.
Until the existence of God can be established with supportive facts, it will seemingly always be considered a "leap of faith" rather than a "scientific" fact.
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline CyranoAH

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« Reply #67 on: August 20, 2005, 02:04:49 AM »
Ok my take on this...

I think Darwin just got a small piece of the puzzle, but so did Newton with his gravity interpretation.

When Einstein came along, it was clear that Newton had seen just a fraction of the whole formula, and even Einstein just got part of it.

Does that mean that because Einstein (or Bohr) didn't get it all right you have to "invent" a new, untestable theory that magically fills in the gaps?

No, you just keep on looking... harder.

Daniel

Offline Nash

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« Reply #68 on: August 20, 2005, 02:11:17 AM »
Cyrano - bravo.

Offline Godzilla

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« Reply #69 on: August 20, 2005, 02:22:36 AM »
If anyone thinks that all of life and the universe was created at random or from thin air, then they are the one's with the irrational logic and simple, closed views.

If you really think about how exact the conditions had to be for ANY life to exist on earth, then couple that with the complexity of our entire ecosystem right down to DNA, then still believe it just happened by chance, then you might be considered the close minded ones.

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #70 on: August 20, 2005, 02:37:04 AM »
Yup. Sooner or latter the discussion will get around to the cambrian rock 'debate'.. gawd only know's the ID lobby had a field day. Sad truth is, since 1952 and the revelation thru DNA that man didn't evolve from a shrew, Darwins Theory as he penned it thumped into into a dumpster.

Again, science is always trying to get a grip on the slippery questions... more questions than theory's exist.

Pardon my wry smile as I offer that the answer to 'evolution' may come from some other field of scientific research. Can you say space-time continuium? Dimensional Mechanics?

Mebbe we're all devolved from bacteria spawned from a passing ailen spaceships chunk of blue ice.

I kinda favor that one, myself. ;)
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Offline SaburoS

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« Reply #71 on: August 20, 2005, 02:43:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Godzilla
If anyone thinks that all of life and the universe was created at random or from thin air, then they are the one's with the irrational logic and simple, closed views.

If you really think about how exact the conditions had to be for ANY life to exist on earth, then couple that with the complexity of our entire ecosystem right down to DNA, then still believe it just happened by chance, then you might be considered the close minded ones.


LOL, what a way to twist things around. If God actually exists, then science will eventually exhaust its present efforts before the truth is found. There are always those continually searching for answers, the truth. Someday we'll find them. That's what makes science "open minded". To argue that we accept the truth without factual data and stop our search is kind of closed minded from my perspective.
I would think everyone would want to know what the actual truth is regardless of affilliation. Right now, the idea of God's existence is based on faith, not fact....to date. Science may someday change that. True knowledge will set us all free. I hope to live to see the day. I doubt it though. I'll settle for I hope we find it before we kill each other off as a human species.
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #72 on: August 20, 2005, 02:47:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SaburoS
LOL, what a way to twist things around. If God actually exists, then science will eventually exhaust its present efforts before the truth is found. There are always those continually searching for answers, the truth. Someday we'll find them. That's what makes science "open minded". To argue that we accept the truth without factual data and stop our search is kind of closed minded from my perspective.
I would think everyone would want to know what the actual truth is regardless of affilliation. Right now, the idea of God's existence is based on faith, not fact....to date. Science may someday change that. True knowledge will set us all free. I hope to live to see the day. I doubt it though. I'll settle for I hope we find it before we kill each other off as a human species.


Yup.

And don't think fer a minute it ain't a race. ;)

"Survival of the Species is Everybody's Business".
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Offline SaburoS

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« Reply #73 on: August 20, 2005, 02:49:42 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
Yup.

And don't think fer a minute it ain't a race. ;)

"Survival of the Species is Everybody's Business".


Yeah, but unfortunetly, we keep thinking that somehow some of the species is better then the other. Us vs Them, the universal war motive.
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline Godzilla

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« Reply #74 on: August 20, 2005, 02:50:36 AM »
People who dismiss ID are closing their minds to a logical explanation to life and the universe.

Funny how people that claim to be open minded about everything under the sun, rule out any chance that a superior being created our life and universe. Seems kind of stubborn and close minded too me.

If Darwin believers  think that all life was created at random, and take by faith that the overwelming long odds actually occured, then they should be open minded enough to think that a god could exist against all logic as well.

People are funny.