Author Topic: Gun Rights Refresher Course  (Read 4840 times)

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2000, 09:57:00 PM »
Dowding

"hi" is "hej" and about that other line try walking up to a very cute blonde with a huge muscular boyfriend and say "hejsa søde, hvad så, skal vi bolle?"

That'll arouse the crowds one way or the other   .

I started learning Enligsh in third or fourth grade while living in Sweden. Had some German from 7th to 9th grade but most of it is blissfully forgotten (hearing kirin & co talking to each other makes me regret not paying attention in class  ).

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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
 

[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 12-09-2000).]

Offline Windle

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« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2000, 02:42:00 AM »
Everyone rid your minds of the fact that guns, or any other material object directs the way US society behaves itself. That would be 'pushing the rope' so to speak.  Every country has it's own personality and its own behavior.  Comparing the relative 'goodness' and 'proper methods' of one society over another is a complete waste of time.  If you want to understand the core of the problem you have to become well aquainted with that country over time from the inside out.  I don't see how anyone could make any honest predictions from the other side of the globe.

That said, the problem with living here in the USA is that it has seen great success exercising it's 20th Century corporate system, and as a result has metamorphosized into an obtusely capitalistic society.  This is a direct result of a Supreme Court ruling in the late 1800's that declared (for some completely mindless reason) that corporate entities would from that day forward be considered 'natural persons' rather than ficticious entities that were at the mercy of the community's decisions.  At that point in time, corporations gained all the freedoms of a living person WITHOUT the fear of being encarcerated for wrong doing - in effect being granted greater freedoms than the people themselves with the added bonus of moral immunity. Since they don't actually exist in the material world, there is not intrinsic desire to work in a fashion that supports the basic necessity for the survival of the living being. Because of this, the resulting detremental impact on society and the environment goes unchecked, and in comparison is dwarfed by the rewards of high profits, booming economy, percieved success, and resulting material gain.  Add on top of that the tremendous amount of capital created by corporations (and the fact that all that concentrated money buys votes & favor in this country) and you have the recipe for societal disaster.  Like it or not, the people of the US are no longer citizens - we are consumers and our portrayed value in this society both socially and politically goes no farther than that.

Corporate power rules this country's political circles, and a very small group of individuals and their corporations rule all of the newspapers and networks that allow the population to know the facts and state of their society.   Rather than trying to limit the mindset of society, corporations offer us a selection of lifestyles to live, and we claw tooth & nail to live up to their expectations.  We aren't necessarily left with the feeling that we are being denied freedoms so there is no conscious need for complaint or uprising - on the contrary we are offered a number of 'designed styles' of freedom in which to choose from and express ourselves through, knowing well that living outside these parameters put us 'out' in the eyes of society.  Corporate goods have come to define who we are (or who we work our whole lives to portray ourselves to be).  American society now sells its soul everyday to have their 'Nike', their 'B&W', their corner office, and the successful image and lifestyle those items allow us to portray.   Popular stereotypes rule our understanding of what is 'cool', and what is socially unworthy.  Every female I know (to one degree or another) has an ongoing complex about their weight due directly to rampant commercialization of the popular starved image that must be matched in order for them to feel attractive.  

By definition of our new way of life, all of the people in this country are trying to live The Dream, and ironically the VAST majority of them, regardless of their wealth and oppulance are to some degree unhappy, suffering from some type of depression, lack of fulfillment, or some other malaise. What's the corporate response? They offer us all kinds of cool things like Prozac, Ritalin and Valium as mood brighteners, completely ignoring the fact that there is an inherent flaw in the foundation of this new 20th Century way of governing ourselves.  Have a sense of loss, hollowness or unfulfillment? - then go shopping, buy more product, boost perceived prosperity, and try feverishly to fill the void inside.  Of course, most feel as long as they portray such an image then they honestly become the image.  The line between the two has become blurred - at least that's the status quo.  This society is completely distracted by corporate deluge of product and lifestyle structuring, and is for all soulful intents and purposes naturally lost from the living moment.  For the majority of us the depth of our history and other profound elements of our understanding of self are lost in the daily purge of sound bytes, 'snippits', 4 minute songs, and other short attention span programming - all of it filtered through corporate opinion and sway before it reaches us.  We find our safety in routines and rarely if ever break loose in a fit of true spontinaety.

Television being the ruling mediator of lifestyle, you will NEVER see an advertisement that portrays their sponsors in a bad light.  You will NEVER see so called 'un'advertisements whose soul purpose is to wake you from your couch potato stupor.  You will NEVER see advertisements that try to roust you away from the relentless onslaught of commercial sales and ploys put out by television, movies, radio, internet, vidieo games, etc.  What you will get is what networks call 'hype' and 'jolts'.  The average movie or television show has a average of five 'jolts' a minute to reset your attention toward the screen.  MTV has an average count of 60 jolts per minute!  How many people can sit quitely for 30 minutes without being interrupted by their internal clock telling them "there's something else you're supposed to be doing"?  

Now, to bring this full circle to the gun rights thing.  There is no doubt in my mind that corporate stereotypes play a huge part in the behavior of the troubled youth (and adults for that matter) in today's American society.  Of course that will never be debated to the point of making substantial changes as long as the popular media is playing a part in the mediation of the subject.  Obtuse corporate power lies at the very core of the problem, and as long as producers and programmers can use gunfire, explosions, and the like to maintain consumer attention (a cheap but effective trick), and as long as the news media can maintain it's 45% average rate of 'sensationalist tragedy' to keep viewers plugged into the news, that's the way things will remain.


 
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"World War III will be a guerrilla information war, with no division between military and civilian participation".
Looking at the fact surrounding 'free' society today, the only way to the next plateau of increased conciousness in living is via this route.  I see no viable way around it, and no logical alternate course.  Whatever fears society or the government holds about an armed rebellion by the people is completely misplaced.  Guns will play little part in the next revolution.  It will be our abilities to manipulate information that brings about the big change - nothing more, nothing less.

P.S. - Also, for all you judgemental folks overseas, keep in mind that you can denounce Capitalist culture all you like, but like it or not, if you're in the free world and reading this post then the same set of values is coming to a city near you.  It's a global epedimic.  In the end you can try to pass the blame all you want, but noone other than yourself has allowed it inside your own borders.  Regardless of what you believe the status quo to be in the U.K., facts show 5 million illegal guns recently entering your country and crime rates on the rise.  Have fun!

[This message has been edited by Windle (edited 12-10-2000).]

TheWobble

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« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2000, 03:02:00 AM »
gee dowding bring up the fact that i once said jap...well here cream yer pants.

JAP JAP JAP JAP JAP JAP JAP JAP JAP.  there im a total biggot....with a gun

I told you handsomehunk that the only reason i say JAP is because i dont feel like typing japanise, just like the british say "yanks" gee i guess dowding thinks brits are all biggots too, well at least im in a big family.

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2000, 06:58:00 AM »
Santa - I'll remember those phrases.   Now if I only knew how to pronouce them properly...  

Wobble,

'Jap.' is an abreviation for Japanese, 'Brit.' is an abreviation for Briton (of which I am one) and 'Yank.' is short for Yankee, which, correct me if I'm wrong, is what the confederates called the the unionists in the American Civil War.

Note also that you used the word 'gook', not 'Jap'. You then defended this by saying,

...the reason i said "gook" is because i was pissed at a "jap"...

To this I replied, that if you're angry at a black man, do you call him a 'cupcake'?

You haven't replied to this directly yet.

You also apologised for any offence caused, but did not retract what you said.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2000, 07:15:00 AM »
Windle - it sounds to me as though you have given up believing anything can be done to halt rampant consumerism. I *hate* the way Britain is being turned (slowly, but almost inexorably) into the 51st state of the USA. This does not stem from a hate for the US, by the way. I see alot of Americans (Republicans mostly) complaining that old fashioned standards are being erroded ('the world isn't like it used to be' syndrome), yet most of them welcome the insipid creep of big business into every corner of their lives. Just look at the election - is there any truth in the observation that neither candidate could back down because of the amount of corporate investment at stake? And then the Law profession, a worthwhile and honourable pursuit, is degraded by the politicians drive to win. After the 3 billion dollars spent on the campaign, what's a few million in lawyer's fees if it means you become President?

Consumerism just panders to the 'me, me, me' part of all of us. We spend our disposable income on things that we think will make us happy, and think we are 'free' because of it - I'm as guilty of this as anyone else. But I recognise that when I die, the things I will remember will the times I've shared with different people, and things I've seen and done. Not what I bought.

Rising crime rates in Britain will not be solved by arming the populace.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Windle

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« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2000, 01:10:00 PM »
 
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Windle - it sounds to me as though you have given up believing anything can be done to halt rampant consumerism.

Actually a good many things can be done, it's all comes down to whether society can make them happen.  Major networks could for once agree to allow types of commercials to be aired that seek to simply break the seemless spell of the consumerist loop.  Offering a mere two minutes an hour to any person or association  who can afford the air time would be a huge start (abiding by FCC rules of course)!  Right now there are a number of organizations with big financial backing and slick 'un'advertisments aimed at casually making the public conscious of the fact it's being tought how to think by the major corporations of the world - geared toward dispelling the 'cool' myth associated with product and product image loyalty that goes unchallenged 24 hours a day.  Despite their backing and quality advertisements, these groups have been consistantly turned away for years from the radio and television networks because their message is not condusive with the intent of the network sponsors and mega-corporations.  The anti-smoking lobby is about the only group that has managed to get any leverage against the commercial agenda of major tobacco corporations, and that battle has been in motion for the last 30 years.  

Then there is the inability to get a message across in anyway that puts the media in suspect light.  A Jonesborough, Arkansas native and former Army officer named David Grossman was nominated for a Pulizer prize because of a book he wrote On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society.  At the time the much publicised school shooting occurred in his home town, he was contacted by enthusiastic television producers for his astute opinion on the possible reason behind the shooting.  He of course pointed out the incontrovertible link between TV violence and real world crime.  More than two hundred studies have identified a clear cause-and-effect relationship, and every credible agency from the American Medical Association to the Surgeon General's Office to the United Nations has accepted the conclusion.  As a result of the networks ultimate position, no story on Mr. Grossman or interview or the TV-crime link has ever aired on network TV.  Every time the story gets to a higher level, it's killed.   Here is a man who is a leading expert on psycology and assasination who has been besieged by the media, did many international radio and newspaper interviews, and was contacted by more than a dozen network TV producers.  NONE of his spots ever ran.  The amount of stonewalling is staggering and speaks volumes about a system with an agenda to control and direct the mindset of the consumers in its own particular and popular fashion without unwanted disturbances.  

The most profound way to break the spell of commercial cultivation would be to overturn the Supreme Court ruling that allowed corporations to be placed on the same plateau as 'natural persons'.  That would allow the people of the country to overthrow any corporation that posed an honest threat to the community at large.  Until then, the average man or lobbying group has no chance in court against such giants.

Abraham Lincoln was quoted as saying...
 
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"Corporations have been enthroned...An era of corruption in high places will follow and the money power will endeavor to prolong its reign by working on the prejudices of the people...until wealth in a few hands...and the republic is destroyed."

The whole idea is not something that has just recently come to light.  It is a fundamental flaw in the way the powers in this country is allowed to operate.  Changes can be made that allow the country to continue to prosper, but corporate America is using leverage with political and popular media groups in a fashion that wont allow the message to get through.  My opinion is that the symptoms of the inherent malady in society will be forced see the message through in time.  Until then it's simply a question of how deep into the abyss we will be dragged before the need for massive restructuring cannot be denied any longer.  The longer we wait, the greater the fallout from the inevitable shift.

 
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Rising crime rates in Britain will not be solved by arming the populace.

I agree with you here for the most part.  I simply believe arming the populance wouldn't affect Britain in any way one way or the other at this point in time.  Your crime apparently hasn't reached the levels yet to even raise the question of the validity of giving back the general populance its freedom to bear arms.  But you must agree, before that nasty shooting a few years back and the resulting confiscation of arms - crime was noticably less than it is today in the UK - for whatever reasons.  The notion that disarming the populance might stop another lunatic from killing a handful of children might have succeeded, but how many murders and gun related crimes have occurred since then that dwarf that particular occurence regardless of the new law?  Whatever the answer may be, the result is that your entire society has been stripped of the ability to defend its lives against agressors with no quatifiable results, and a violent crime rate that continues to rise unheedingly.  Should the proliferation of the drug culture and the fallout from it such as increased gun violence, home invasion, and the like continue to grow in the UK, I can tell you from experience that you will definately be missing the simple comfort you used to enjoy of having a basic rifle in the closet.  Once the ferver of the criminals reaches a point where they are willing to enter your house and cause you harm in order to facilitate their dependances, they will do so with no hesitance over the fact that they might meet equal opposition.  

From across the Pond I can't really make the call or pass profound judgement one way or the other because I don't walk your streets everyday, and I haven't directly experieced your society and its ways. Only you guys will know when the time comes, what is right for you.  If you can  maintain a sense of order through your country's inborn royal honor code then more power to you - all we have over here are sleezy politicians to lead us and we all know it.   My wishes are with you for a bright and positive future.

Offline straffo

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« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2000, 02:55:00 AM »
 
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Originally posted by StSanta:
If French people dominated this board, I'd be on their case for the fun of it    .

I am dominating this board your just not aware of that  

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2000, 07:42:00 AM »
Ahh, feel the love!  Reminds me of a John Lennon song....

"Happiness....is a warm gun <Shoot Shoot Bang Bang>

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2000, 10:06:00 AM »
Windle, you make some excellent points. I wonder how many of us realise the extent to which undemocratic bodies control our lives? We think consumerism is one of the most democratic activities (outside electing our leaders, or not as the case may be  ) - we think because we have a choice it must be a worthy pursuit. But the only choice worth a damn is an informed choice. The stone-walling of information based on financial considerations (there's a price on everything after all), really is a problem, the scale of which is difficult to judge.

Over here, there's talk of privatising the BBC every so often. At the moment, everyone pays a TV license (about £90 a year) - this goes to funding the service. A privatised BBC would obviously include advertisements for its revenue. In recent years, the BBC, in my opinion, has dumbed itself down considerably. There are still quality programs there, but everything is coated in a veneer of 'style'.

The things you talk about remind me of Michael Moore - his pet subject is big business. His programs make interesting watching and the last one I saw was about the senate, and the senator's various comercial interests.

BTW, you don't hold a monopoly on sleazy politician types, ya know!   We have plenty of those, with some pretty seedy out-of-house activities. Fortunately, corporate sponsorship of election campaigns is ver limited - I hope it stays that way. And our Royal Family isn't exactly ideal either.

Crime over here isn't really that bad. True, certain types of crime are rising, but others are decreasing. There's a lot of renuvation in old council estates (state owned housing); these used to be areas of very high crime, but are now becoming more civilised with community spirit being re-engendered.

I disagree with your point of the British people being stripped of the means to defend themselves, viz firearms. Historically, the British people never really owned firearms, and even before Dunblane, I don't think many people owned a gun. I think recent rises in the crime rate are perhaps only a delayed reaction from the social change started in the 80's, which continued into the 90's. Large amounts of unemployment are almost always conducive to a rising crime rate.

 
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My wishes are with you for a bright and positive future.

You too mate, I'm sure once you've sorted out who your President really is, you can back to ruling the world.  
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Udie

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« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2000, 12:00:00 PM »
 
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Ahh, feel the love!  Reminds me of a John Lennon song....

"Happiness....is a warm gun <Shoot Shoot Bang Bang>


 That song was about shooting heroine  


Udie

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #40 on: December 11, 2000, 12:12:00 PM »
To him, it was, to me it had a different meaning.  

Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #41 on: December 11, 2000, 12:43:00 PM »
Erm.. St. Santa?  How would things in Denmark be if you were considered "The land of oportunity"?  Why isn't Denmark considered that?  Why isn't Denmark more apealing to refugees and imigrants across the world?

Oh.. that's right.. you guys don't let them in.  Population/citizen control starts at such a fundamental level in Denmark that I wonder if most even realize its occuring.

The French are even better.  They let you in.. but continually insult you and your family until you leave.  Not only does it accomplish the same thing as a closed border... they get to actually belittle people at the same time.

 

Oh.. as for no guns... an anecdote:

When I came home from a buisness trip to Asia... my wife informed me that one of our dogs (affectionately known as "fatass") could not get up to go outside to do his buisness.  She thought that his arthritis in his hips was preventing it.

Upon hearing this, I looked at the dog for about 30 seconds trying to decide wether or not to shoot him.  Without a word being said... the dog got up and ran outside.  He hasn't as much as limped in the last 4 years.

If I didn't really have a gun.. would that dog have taken me seriously?

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Offline straffo

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« Reply #42 on: December 11, 2000, 01:58:00 PM »
 
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The French are even better. They let you in.. but continually insult you and your family until you leave. Not only does it accomplish the same thing as a closed border... they get to actually belittle people at the same time.

ROTLMAO ... complete bullsh*t ... you can choose the term ya want  

Where did you get that ? I've yet to figure where you American got such non sense.

 
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they get to actually belittle people at the same time.

Only with those ugly American as arrogant as us   with the exception of some Danes  
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God I've to take valium I'm becoming postaolic ...  

Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2000, 02:41:00 PM »
Actually Straffo.. it was only part truth and heavily based on stereotype.  Of course, I'm the only one to do this in this forum.

Parisians are doing your country a great service.  I can understand the attitude on many different levels... but it doesn't make the end results any more appealing.  Unfortunately for most of the rest of the world.. Parisian=French.

So.. don't take it personal.  I just like to stereotype as much as anybody else participating in a thread.  I also like to point out that virtually anyone from any country reacts when someone starts to criticize their nation.  France encluded.

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Offline straffo

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« Reply #44 on: December 11, 2000, 03:34:00 PM »
Too bad I'm a stereotype  
and ex-parisien btw  
I've to agree that the Parisianism is a great plague for us french people  
generally speaking they behave like they were "king of the world"

The problem for me is that I've no stereotype for other country   or I'm doing my best to never use it as I've noticed several time that they were wrong