Author Topic: what a/c was that on bigboys  (Read 429 times)

Offline moose

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what a/c was that on bigboys
« on: August 28, 2005, 11:10:38 PM »
for those who frequent the site, what kind of a/c was the one in the crash on their main page.. says 'vintage' ac...couldnt find the ntsb report on it

i'm not gonna link it cuz that site is cookielicious
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Offline kevykev56

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what a/c was that on bigboys
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2005, 01:00:42 AM »
Here is some info on the crash. This is the link to this article starts at page 7 for this accident.

Four unrelated incidents




The accident aircraft is a highly modified de Havilland aircraft. In this case a Caribou had been converted to turbine power and was operated under the EXPERIMENTAL category of CAR 4b. The conversion was accomplished at Gimli, and the aircraft first flew in mid-November 1991, before accumulating about 23 hours on 12 flights by month end. These preliminary tests revealed the need for the replacement of the aircraft’s mechanical vacuum pumps with a Bendix suction system, the addition of in-line fuel boost pumps and the installation of a newly designed hydraulic pump. The accident occurred on August 27, 1992 on the first of several planned trips to flight check the fuel and hydraulic systems. The aircraft had been hangared in a partially disassembled
state over the winter, and had only recently been re-assembled, including the
Re-installation of the complete tail section. I.ll let the video show you what happened, and I will caution you right now that this footage is extremely graphic.


The accident investigation used this videotape and some 35mm photographs as a key resource in determining what went wrong at Gimli. With the exception of a slightly higher-than-normal nose attitude at lift-off, the aircraft’s initial climb appeared normal. At about 35 feet AGL, the aircraft made a noticeable pitchup movement. When I tell you that the photography revealed that the elevator control surfaces were observed to pitch trailing-edge-up for rotation, neutralize and then remain in the neutral position through the balance of that short flight, I expect most of you will come to the same conclusion as the Transportation Safety Board of Canada. The aircraft’s control gust locks were at least partly engaged. A very close examination of the video does indicate rudder movement and minimal elevator movement, during the start of the takeoff roll.
On the standard Caribou, the gust lock control handle is located forward of the power quadrant, and it has two positions. Forward for Unlocked, and aft for Locked. If the control surfaces are not in the neutral position when the lock is engaged, any movement of the surfaces through the neutral position will cause the lock to engage. In addition, on the factory-standard Caribou, the control handle is designed so that when it is in the aft-Locked position, the power levers cannot be fully advanced. This is intended to prevent power application and takeoff when the gust lock system is engaged. The accident investigation further revealed that the aircraft’s takeoff distance was approximately 20 per cent longer than anticipated for the conditions. This may provide further evidence that the gust locks played a part in this event. Analysis of the recovered debris indicated that, although the aileron and elevator locking mechanisms were in their respective disengaged positions, the rudder locking mechanism was found to have been in the fully engaged position at impact. Further investigation revealed that in fact, it had been jammed there by the forces of the impact. In addition, the analysis determined from the damage evidence that the aileron control lock had been dis-engaged at the time of impact. In its synopsis of the accident, the Transportation Safety Board concluded that the control gust lock system had not been fully disengaged prior to flight and that one or more of the locking pins had become re-engaged after lift-off.

What could have prevented this accident? The most obvious solution was that a complete six-point control check prior to takeoff would have revealed that free and proper movement of the control system was compromised.
RHIN0 Retired C.O. Sick Puppies Squadron

Offline Furball

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what a/c was that on bigboys
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2005, 04:54:53 AM »
ouch. sad :(
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Offline moose

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what a/c was that on bigboys
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2005, 05:42:35 AM »
thanks.. i did see someone had said it was a deHavilland but most of the time the user comments are a bunch of kids flaming each other.. very sad though. i was hoping that it was some sort of remote experiment because the video seemed somewhat staged..
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Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2005, 10:30:02 AM »
Aaargh!  This is so infuriating to see.  An 'all controls free and correct' check is so freakin' obvious, and I do it every flight, even if I'm doing a taxi-back after a full stop landing.

There's a removable panel in the back of the luggage compartment in the 172 I rent, and the instructor described how once he found the tow-bar stowed in the compartment behind it.

The 'compartment' in question being the TAIL of the aircraft, as noted by the many exposed control cables.  The guy who had towed the plane to parking must have figured 'ah, the tow bar goes in the trunk' and didn't think about the tow-bar binding up controls in flight.
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Offline Golfer

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what a/c was that on bigboys
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2005, 01:30:42 PM »
It happened to him...it can happen to you.

Just keep checking and double checking because you won't want someone coming down that hard on you if you ding an airplane.  I've seen plenty of dings and haven't had the pleasure myself...yet.

If it does happen to you, life isn't over.  You'll be out a few bucks, but make sure you file the NASA form and quickly learn from the experience...the feds might not be so willing to take your tickets if you make yourself safer.

I gave this advice to a guy who busted 2 Delta and 1 charlie airports, landed without (knowing) he had a clearance.  I was IFR coming back into my home airport when approach couldn't raise a Mooney.  This had me interested because I too was a Mooney so I called up and verified if they were looking for me.  Nope...but I saw the guy they were talking about thanks to the help of the passenger in the right seat we were able to keep tabs on him.

He lost his alternator coming off of OSU on an IFR flight plan.  This caused his battery to drain and he lost is transponder, radios and everything else that is electric.  I was being vectored for the ILS back home when we picked him up.  He had flown south toward his home airport, it was socked in with low fog and it was VFR back up where he lost his comms.  He turned around and approach called him out (only as a primary with no mode C or xponder) so we figured he was heading back to bolton. After changing frequencies the tower called him out (no radar equipment) and called the turns for the airplanes in the pattern because he knew the guy was coming in.  There were 2 airplanes holding short at the end of Rwy 4 and this guy entered a downwind for 22...saw the airplanes holding short and circled for a left downwind for 4.  I was on the ILS and was cleared to land straight in and kept an eye on the guy the whole time.  He was on the downwind when I cleared the runway.  All 3 tower controllers are good friends of mine and the one today asked if I'd see what was up and to have him give tower a call.  I heard the story, fixed the guy up with a NASA form and gave him the Tower's phone number.  I went up to the tower cab and asked for the full scoop and was there when he called.  Nobody was mad, all the controllers at approach were happy he was safe and the FSDO as far as I know never even called.

I know inspectors that would be more than happy to pull every ticket this guy had including tickets to the ball game.  Don't be those guys...even they're human and make mistakes.  The system worked, he safely landed and the controller even gave him light gun signals so he was cleared to land the whole time.  Somebody lands without so much as talking to the tower maybe once a month at the airport...and the most important thing to do is figure out why and learn from it.

Long rhetoric for not a lot...but mistakes happen.  The guy I watched ding a 172 wingtip into some T hangars didn't need any outside help at feeling bad/dumb/stupid ect. about what he did.  Nobody got hurt and from now on he'll pay attention to the shadows, because if the shadows don't touch, the wings don't touch.

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2005, 02:51:38 PM »
Golfer, are you responding to the same post?  Mine was in response to the aircraft crash where the guy left the gust locks engaged, failed to do a control check during runup, then crashed and died in a big fireball on takeoff due to overrotation followed by stall.
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Offline Golfer

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« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2005, 03:36:15 PM »
Read the first line of my post...

"It happened to him, it can happen to you"

If you could interview the pilots/victims of a fatal accident after the fact, none of them would tell you that they expected to die in a crash.  The same goes for the guys in the Caribou.

Leaving the gust locks in is a dumb thing to do, hence I say to you keep checking and double checking.  They don't need you to tell them that it's a dumb thing to do they learned that the hard (and hot) way.

You're not going to have a perfect flight, you can just do your best to make sure what isn't perfect isn't what is going to kill you.  But if you ever do have a perfect flight holding altitude within an inch while handflying a several hour leg and never getting off course a foot...let me know because you're a better man than I.

"It" doesn't have to be leaving the gust lock in.  I gave a few examples of "it" happening.  Busting airspace is "it."  Leaving the chocks in the nosewheel is "it"  Running out of fuel is "it"  leaving the tail (or tying it down when they're not looking :p ) is "it"  Running a wingtip into a hangar is "it"  Spacial disorientation is "it" and with aviation it can happen.  It does happen.  It can happen to me.

Offline Golfer

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what a/c was that on bigboys
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2005, 03:43:24 PM »
and for what its worth...it does happen.  To people better than I.  The CFI on board the Bonanza that wrecked in NC a few weeks ago is a friend to me and an even better friend to people i know.  Flys for a medical outfit here in Columbus as well.  He survived the initial crash.

Talked to the former owner of that airplane as well.  We don't know what went wrong, but the owner thinks that because the fuel gauge is independent of the tanks (you have to select L/R M/A) with it's own selector that its possible they ran out of fuel in a tank and not saw it coming.  This doesn't make sense because if the engine just stops making noise and doesn't stop it's probably fuel related.  Fuel, Air and Fire...first steps on that list.  That's Fuel selector/pump, throttle open and magnetos (or iginitors) verify on.  Changing fuel tanks and getting fuel into the engine should have made it start making noise again but it didn't.

I wasn't there...but it can happen to me.

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2005, 03:48:10 PM »
Gotcha, I missed the segue.  

I had a good flight yesterday, but it wasn't perfect of course.  I won't get cocky, I read a book called 'The killing zone' about the deadliest part of being a pilot, the 150ish hour mark that's the center of the bell curve of fatalities for GA.

I took my wife (her first flight in small aircraft), 3 year old son (his first flight) and nephew (first flight) up yesterday in a Cessna 172.  We had a super smooth flight, hardly any turbulence except for some bumpiness near the ground.  I'm holding my altitudes near where I want, and I'm ahead of the plane.

Comes time to land, and I'm listening to the CTAF.  There's some activity at the airport, but nothing bad.  I call out my position a couple miles out and enter on the left 45 for runway 33 just after an unannounced Maule turns downwind.  I'm watching him and pull in behind him.  I realize that I've entered the pattern about a hundred feet high and I'm awful close behind him.  After a second I decide to to a right 360 for spacing.  I aviate/navigate and then radio what I'm doing so people know what's up.  We're close to the ground and its getting hot, so the ride is a little bumpy, and my wife (who it turns out, didn't see the other plane) thinks I'm being a twit for doing the 360.  I re-enter the pattern at the right altitude, that Maule is way out and there's nobody else near us, and I do a standard touchdown.

Judgement is always gonna be a big part of what keeps me out of trouble, I figure.  For instance, I reserved a 172 on Saturday night.  I tried a sip of punch at a party that afternoon and then found out that it had been spiked with Vodka.  All I had was a sip, but damned if I was going to violate the 8 hours bottle to throttle limitation, even if my BAC was .0000001.
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Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2005, 09:31:45 PM »
I have a very good, close friend that's an instructor.  We were watching a film clip, not unlike the one above, where something had gone very, very wrong. The result was a smoking hole, fatalities.

"Zero".

'Henh?' I asked. "Zero." sez the instructor. "Why 'Zero'? sez I.

"I have taught 42 people how to fly in the course of nearly 30 years of professional aviating. I have yet to have one of my pilots ever score a Zero landing. That, (nods at the screen) is a 'Zero' landing. "

"oh." sez I. "So, if a crater is a 'Zero', how would you score a perfect landing? A 'Ten'??"

"Nope. Ain't no such thing as a 'perfect' landing." Not being one to push a point of professionalism, I let the subject drop.

A few weeks later he was flight judging for a scale contest. I was flying. Nasty crosswind, the flight was a wrestling match. I made the calls, ran the pattern, shot the approach; tagged the centerline and made a greased beautiful no bounce landing. Spectators were applauding.. polite golf claps. I taxied into the pits, killed the power and stepped up to tow the bird back to my pit. As I walked past Jay he looked me in the eye and said...

"One."

Incredulous, I protested... 'One? Whaddya mean 'One'? He came right back with "you blew the proceedure turn. Then you broke the deadline when that gust kicked you wide. Then you lined up high, broke the threshold long, didn't use flaps, landed hot and got off the rudder way to late. You put that plane at extreme risk to tag the centerline. Mighta looked good to the amatures behind the rope, but you ever land my bird like that I'll kick yer sorry butt all the way to the FBO's gate."

I understand now. ;)
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