Author Topic: P-39... Any news?  (Read 3465 times)

Offline Krusty

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P-39... Any news?
« Reply #45 on: November 22, 2005, 12:17:26 PM »
"A similar trial was carried out against a Spitfire V. Although the Airacobra was faster than the Spitfire up to 15,000 feet, it was outclimbed and out-turned by the Spitfire. Unless it had a height advantage, the Airacobra could not compete with the Spitfire. If on the same level or below, at heights up to about 15,000 feet, the Airacobra would have to rely on its superior level and diving speeds and its ability to take negative "G" without the engine cutting out. Above 15,000 feet, the Airacobra lost its advantage in level speed."

Um... something's not right with your source. Spit V didn't have a bubble float carb. That was the Spit I/II. And those would be somewhat inferior to the V in performance (a lot more in my opinion).

Offline Magoo

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P-39... Any news?
« Reply #46 on: November 22, 2005, 12:37:55 PM »
Good catch Krusty.

Joe gives his sources at the bottom of the page where I got this info, but it doesn't specify which particular source this comparison comes from.

 http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p39_5.html

Of course the inability to get the model spitfire correct casts doubt on the entire article. You could however attribute it to the failing memory of an old fighter pilot telling the story if you were inclined to believe it.

Magoo
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Offline Magoo

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« Reply #47 on: November 22, 2005, 01:39:28 PM »
A bandit on your six is better than no bandit at all!

Offline Krusty

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« Reply #48 on: November 22, 2005, 02:49:02 PM »
VERY nice read! :aok

Exactly like he said, it's the pilot, not the plane. Too bad I feel that AH is the other way around (lol)

Offline Magoo

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« Reply #49 on: November 22, 2005, 03:39:00 PM »
Quote
I don't know much about the 39/400, except for being able to recognize one. Is the engine situated directly behind the pilot? If so, what's in the nose? Just armament, cooling gear, fuel tanks?



Nose wheel (landing gear), propeller driveshaft, and a BFG  AKA "Big F***ing Gun"

Actually a 37MM "potato gun" or cannon with unremarkable ballistics, not nearly as good as the 37MM in the Yak9T we have in the game now. Of course once the  Cannon rounds are expended in a P39 you would still have four or two Heavy machine guns and possibly four 30 caliber machine guns (depending on the variant) to fight with whereas in the Yak9T you only have a single 12.7mm (I believe).

The P400 was the British version of the P39 and was equpped with a single Hispano 20MM in place of the 37MM cannon that was in the american and russian export versions, in addition to four 50 caliber Heavy machine guns - two in the nose and two under (not in) the wings. Keep in mind the P400 was an early variant and even though you get a Hispano in the nose, the performance would not be nearly as good as say a P39Q-10.

The P39 was supposed to be able to absorb quite a bit of battle damage. I wonder how it would compare in game to the F6F or Jug? Does anybody have some info regarding this aspect of the Aircobra?

Magoo
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Offline humble

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P-39... Any news?
« Reply #50 on: November 22, 2005, 09:38:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Okay, humble, don't start this again:

"The 109 was much much worse than the P-39 and so was F4U to name just two"

This from the guy that claims the 109 was the WORST fighter ever to be made, and was totally useless in 1941, let alone all the years later. and blah blah blah. Just, .... choose your words carefully. I myself need to work on the same thing.


1st that quote is a bit out of context, it was specifically referring to the planes handling both in the air and on the ground. Both planes were quite capable of killing an inexperienced, distracted or panicked pilot. As an example once the 109 was on final power settings were severely restricted since the plane got very heavy on one wing and significant rudder was required....if the pilot started to lose the plane power input greatly increased the problem and often flipped the plane on its back....as for the hog....well they didnt call it the ensign eliminator for nothing. The 38 story simply illustrates that even a twin with counter rotating props can kill you if you goof.....

As for the 109 vs P-39 its well documented that the germans ordered luftwaffe pilots to NOT engage the P-39 when ever possible.

As for the 109, it was clearly the best design in the world when it was indroduced in the mid 1930's. I feel the !09F4 was the high water point for the plane with later versions getting worse and worse. Further the shortcomings exposed in BoB and elsewhere were never corrected and continued development of the 109 cost the germans dearly by eliminating planes with greater potential....

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Offline humble

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« Reply #51 on: November 22, 2005, 09:47:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ATA
Right Humble,again..
You questioning my "resources" and I'm questioning yours.
At least I'm trying to be nice..
My "resources"do not need to be translated ,yours do.
I speak English,Russian,Armenian,German(well a little).
I can compare facts from Russia,America,Germany...
You can not do crap,you dont even have any idea what i posted in Russian,i dont have time to translate that in two mounth 6 pilots died in accidents due to crappy design of p39,that there was a panick fear of flying p39 in 42-45.
Again,stick to your "opinion"
The only good fighter on eastern front was P51.Well....they have been shot down by LA-7.


1st I never said the La-7 wasnt a good plane or that the pony was better than the la-7....although it was significantly better as a tactical asset. The la-7 couldnt perform the p-51's typical mission but the pony was competitive (not better) to the la-7 in the la-7's primary role.

"your" resources are gibberish, not even documented as to what where and by whom. Further the info i'm using IS russian and it seems to reflect the real facts as commonly known....as for your 6 dead pilots....thats about 1 bad day at pensecola in 1942.

If you look at the comments I believe were posted elsewhere above one pilot who flew the laag-3 p-40 p-39 and la-5 clearly staed that russian pilots preferred the P-39 due to its ruggedness and felt they had a good chance to walk away from a ditch....where in the la-5 pilot fatality or serious injury was the norm.

Obviously you have a biased position for some reason.....

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Offline humble

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« Reply #52 on: November 22, 2005, 10:00:20 PM »
Back to the original question on engine power and settings....from the link above....

Now regarding power settings. In principle the RPMs were regulated by a conventional throttle. In the Cobras there were two regimes of throttle operation, “normal” and “war emergency”, which was characterized by increased manifold pressure. The throttle quadrant was mounted in the [left side of the] cockpit and the pilot controlled it. The “war emergency” regime had a lever position that we called “51 inches and 57 inches of boost”. If we were flying on Soviet B-95 fuel, then “war emergency power” was set at 51 inches. If we were using American B-100 fuel, then “war emergency power” was set at 57inches. Although it was mounted in the cockpit, on the throttle quadrant, the pilot did not adjust this setting. The position of the “war emergency power” selector was controlled by a piece of wire that could be broken easily with greater forward pressure on the throttle quadrant.

One time I sensed a lack of power (I needed to get ahead of a German) and I thought, “The hell with it”! I broke the wire and selected “57”. Then I experienced what “57” meant! My airplane leapt forward! The Germans spotted me from above and dove immediately, which was what we wanted.

and........

"These first Allisons did not deliver even one-half of the recommended engine hours. 50 hours was its limit, and frequently less. Normally 10—15 sorties if they were in combat. They seized, the bearings melted; this happened to me once. I sat out for a while with no engine. They monitored these engines closely. As soon as any metal showed up in the oil, they changed out the engine. The supply of replacement engines was plentiful, but it was not always possible to get delivery of them. Sometimes they brought them in on an Li-2 [Soviet-built C-47], four in a load, such was the demand for new power plants. But just the same, despite our best efforts, there were seizures. True, this engine did not “throw” connecting rods, at least this never happened to us. On type-5 and later models the engines were more powerful and reliable"

Bottom line is they stripped the bird down and ran the engine to its full potential as needed....

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Offline Skilless

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P-39... Any news?
« Reply #53 on: November 22, 2005, 10:34:51 PM »
I remember hearing about broken u-joints causing pilots to be bludgeoned to death with their own drive shafts...

Offline Magoo

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« Reply #54 on: November 23, 2005, 09:12:30 AM »
Here is some more excellent reading on the P39. First the link to the main webpage which covers lend-lease in general:

http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/index.htm

Here is the P39 specific link from this site that is another excellent read:

http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/romanenko/p-39/index.htm


And a relevent quote from this article/interview on the P39:

Returning to the Airacobra, it must be noted that the British somewhat underrated it. Soviet pilots preferred the Cobra despite its many shortcomings to any other aircraft received from the Allies, including the Spitifire VB, which the British deigned to give us only in 1943.

The reasons for this will be examined below, but one of them can be noted right here and now: The Airacobra almost ideally corresponded to the nature of combat activities on the Soviet-German front. Here the struggle was not for absolute air superiority, but for superiority over specific areas of active combat activities. Dive bombers and close support aircraft, that is, aircraft directly supporting ground forces, operating at low altitude over the battlefield or at medium altitudes in the operational-tactical airspace, were the basis of both the Luftwaffe and the VVS Red Army. Correspondingly, the fighters had either to counter the enemy's fighters, or accompany one's own bombers at those same altitudes. Air battles rarely occurred at altitudes above 5,000 meters. In these working environments the Airacobra just had the best flight characteristics. If one adds to this good maneuverability, easy handling, powerful armaments, and excellent vision, then its success on the Soviet-German front becomes obvious.

And another quote from the same article:

One who has carefully read the material above regarding the Airacobra might logically ask the question, why was this same model of the airplane so bad for British employment and so good for Soviet employment? What can explain this contradiction?

There were several reasons. We will dwell on the most important: First, we received already "reworked" aircraft that lacked the initial deficiencies. Second, our specialists tested the Airacobra for the specific altitude envelope of the Soviet-German front, which corresponded well with the best flying performance characteristics of the aircraft. Third, the aircraft actually were not bad. And fourth, the brief test period did not permit sufficient testing to expose the basic weaknesses of design and construction that were later revealed in the process of mass exploitation. The flat spin, the engine throwing connecting rods, and other manifestations were yet to be discovered.

And a very interesting observation here:

The myth regarding the employment of the Airacobra in the Soviet VVS almost exclusively as a "shturmovik" [ground-attack aircraft] is widespread in Western literature (W. Green, P. Bowers, E. McDowwell). This myth arose out of an insufficiency of information: both Soviet official and memoir sources were carefully screened by Glavlit [political censorship overseeing publication of all printed material in the USSR] and stood on the "only believable" conceptual positions, and almost until the 1970s attempted to conceal any information about Kittyhawks, Cobras, and Hurricanes, as though they almost never existed. This phenomenon was very astutely expressed by Larry Bell as far back as 1944 when in a conversation with Soviet test pilots he said, "I have sent you three thousand airplanes and I could just as well have thrown them into Lake Ontario! I know nothing about them, how they are fighting, and if your men are satisfied with them!"

With the release in the late 1960s of A. I. Pokryshkin's "The skies of war", one of the starkest books about pilots in war, translated into many foreign languages, the situation regarding the Airacobras was somewhat clarified. However (nature abhors a vacuum), now Western authors have taken up "class positions". From the description of hundreds of aerial combats they have selected only a small period and have advanced a new myth: the "Russians", it seems, successfully employed the Airacobra only against slow-moving transports and aging bombers. This was an introduction to the tale and the tale is forthcoming.

There are some great pictures and insights at this website, well worth the time it takes to read it all.:aok

Magoo
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Offline Masherbrum

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P-39... Any news?
« Reply #55 on: November 23, 2005, 09:22:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ATA
Oh please guys! We all now that USAF sold them to Russians because p39 were extremely crappy,Russians bought them because there were relocating factories to the east and had nothing else to fly.
After 1942 p39"s and P40 were given as punishment to squads  that didnt  "perform" too well.
Life time for p39 and p40 motor (as you know they had same engines) was 250 hrs.
They were lucky to "live" 60-70% of that.


The following picture is a P-39Q which is in FLYABLE condition at the Kalamazoo Air Zoo.



ATA, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Karaya
« Last Edit: November 23, 2005, 09:26:29 AM by Masherbrum »
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Offline Magoo

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P-39... Any news?
« Reply #56 on: November 23, 2005, 10:17:29 AM »
Masherbrun, if we believe what is written in the articles I link to above then ATA has fallen prey to the Soviet propoganda machine described in one of those articles. I refuse to put all my faith in one source, even those I linked to, but one thing is clear - Russia took delivery of over four thousand P39s and there were over nine thousand produced (all variants). Crappy planes don't get produced in these numbers. That goes for the P40 also. They may have become outclassed by the end of the war, but WWII didn't just take place between 1944-45. For their time (early and even mid war) the P40 and P39 were good airplanes and in the roles they were suited for excellent airplanes.

In Aces High the fights are down low for the most part, or they end up down low. I think the P39 will find a niche in the game due to it's matching performance envelope and be well worth the time it takes to add it.

Magoo
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Offline humble

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P-39... Any news?
« Reply #57 on: November 23, 2005, 01:08:29 PM »
I think the most telling fact we can look at is the actual behavior of the top soviet pilots who actually flew the P-39 (and the elite units they flew in). My understanding is that many flew the P-39 until well into 1944 (and some till the end of the war).

I'd venture that these pilots had their choice of aircraft and the fact that they continued to fly the P-39 even after the Yak3, 7, & 9 /Mig-3/La5n were readily available simply indicates that they felt the P-39 was the plane most likely to get the job done and get them home alive.

I think the biggest issue is how do you model the russian variation of the plane given the differing philosphy regarding weight and engine settings. Do the "real" soviet numbers even exist anywhere....the quotes from pilots in the links above suggest that the soviets "fudged" their own official numbers down a bit with regard to these planes.

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Offline Magoo

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« Reply #58 on: November 23, 2005, 03:00:56 PM »
Humble,

In some of my reading at Joe Baugher's site I discovered that there were some variants that were shipped to Russia in which they removed the wing guns as a standard configuration for that particular model. This is one of the major weight saving "field modifications" that the Russians performed. Then the question becomes 'do we have data on hand for that particular variant"?  Another issue here is that this was a late war P39Q I believe and not the P39D or P400 which was the more abundant lend-lease P39.
I think HTC could take an educated guess on the wing gun mod and the difference in roll rate, manueverability, and speed that would give you.

As far as the engines settings, I think they actually ran them at the same settings as the US pilots but due to the poor 'oil culture' in the Russian maintenance method the Allisons 'made metal' in the pan. Once they got up to speed on the maintenance they were OK. I think we'd be fine with the American data on the engine performance.

As you stated, this bird would get them home alive, which is an endearing quality for a warplane to have:D   This is one of the reasons I fly the P47 and F6F in the crowded MA, with all those guys shooting at you it's imperative that your plane can absorb a little punishment to allow you to have a round trip.:aok

Magoo
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Offline humble

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« Reply #59 on: November 23, 2005, 06:05:47 PM »
my only question would be on "boost"...I put up an earlier quote where pilot stated that the boost limiter was wired at 51 pds and he broke it and went to 57 pds. Now the truth is that all US planes had this option (obviously with different #'s). The throttle stop was a piece of wire. I've read stories about 51 and 47 pilots who "broke the tape" when needed...also others who never did and remember one double ace who said he never even used WEP once....his reasoning being that A) he didnt need it...and B) if you didnt get home it didnt matter. He was more worried about dinging his engine than he was about the germans....

So if the russian culture gave them alot more discretion with regard to overstressing the engine.....remember on the early ones they were only getting 8 to 10 sorties and less than 50 total hours per engine....does that mean you have higher boost or do you model engine failure probabilities (something not done in AH).

From what I've read the russians had alot of leeway on losing a bird or wrecking an engine in combat....but could get hauled off and shot for coming home without having pushed the edge. Somewhere in the links above is a story regarding the commander of a fighter unit who failed to protect there assigned bombers...the guy landed the plane and blew his brains out at the end of the runway instead of waiting for the inevitable "tribunal"....

Regardless of the specifics I think it will suprise alot of folks....at lower alts its a tougher bird overall than the F6F....(Q model)

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson