Documentation of 2000HP Bf 109s in 1945

[Knegel]

Hi,

cant you stop this crappy polemics while discussing??

To attack each other dont help to prove or disprove the subject, it only make all your comments less credible.

We know that there are some hints that 1,98 got used in different squads, we also know that there are not many german documents from 1945 left.
I think it would be strange to think that the LW did test 1,98 in late 1944, but never did use it.

That the 1.98 got used relative often while combat seems to be likely to me, although its not 100% proofed, that 1.98 dont got used is even more a speculation, but also possible.

So what?? The Spit14 (21/25lb) and K4 (1.98, if used at all), was pretty rare in relation to other used planes and therefor not very relewant.  

To include the 2000hp K4 as perkplane into AH would, imho, be a nice variation, same like the 25lb Sp14 and the 2250HP 190D9.

Unfortunately this dont would help to fix the bad drag calculations(the Sp5 fly sustained highspeed circles around the Sp9 and 14 lol ).  

Please please please, keep the discussians within arguments, i hate the need to read 80% polemical crap, to find 20% usefull stuff.

Greetings, Knegel

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Knegel
Hi,

cant you stop this crappy polemics while discussing??

To attack each other dont help to prove or disprove the subject, it only make all your comments less credible.

We know that there are some hints that 1,98 got used in different squads, we also know that there are not many german documents from 1945 left.
I think it would be strange to think that the LW did test 1,98 in late 1944, but never did use it.

That the 1.98 got used relative often while combat seems to be likely to me, although its not 100% proofed, that 1.98 dont got used is even more a speculation, but also possible.

So what?? The Spit14 (21/25lb) and K4 (1.98, if used at all), was pretty rare in relation to other used planes and therefor not very relewant.  

To include the 2000hp K4 as perkplane into AH would, imho, be a nice variation, same like the 25lb Sp14 and the 2250HP 190D9.

Unfortunately this dont would help to fix the bad drag calculations(the Sp5 fly sustained highspeed circles around the Sp9 and 14 lol ).  

Please please please, keep the discussians within arguments, i hate the need to read 80% polemical crap, to find 20% usefull stuff.

Greetings, Knegel

Totally agree.
Thats all I have been asking for - PROOF
NOT - assume, guess, presume, etc.

Although he has PROVED the intention to use 1.98ata and that a few units of 109-G10 tested it, he has not even come close to proving it was used with the 3 K4 and single G-10 units listed in the proposed changes.

The biggest factors in my skepticism -
1) The order/proposal is approx 6 weeks from the end of the war.
2) The remaining K4 + G10 (79 approx) list is approx 3-4 weeks form the end of the war.
3) Reversion back to non C3/1.98ata was not possible at unit level ( from Butch), so would assume the reverse was true. i.e. conversion could not be done at unit level.

Put it all together -
Last months of thw war Germant was in ruin, choas, being bombed almost 24hrs day, infrastructure was shot, and yet they would have taken 4 units off-line to convert to 1-98ata when they could fly on C3 or B4 before the conversion. All this within 6 weeks of the original order.
Given it took the RAF from the inital order for 2TAF to use 150 grade in Nov 44, until Jan 1945 before it started happening.
Approx the same 6 week timeframe.

[Knegel]

Hi,

iam not sure if the mechianics wasnt able of the revision to a non C3/1,98 ata engine.

If you look how many improvements on the BMW801 was made by the Geschwader mechanics, which later took place in the normal production, i have no doubt that they was able to make this relative easy revision.  It probably dont was possible in the dirt of a simple field base, but the normal bases had good "garages".  

But anyway, in the "Reparatur-Anweisung 2. Nachtrag Nr. 191/345 from des Reichministers für Rüstung und Kriegproduktion, in 14 March 1945"  Kurfürst saw this as important:
"Moreover this document tells that "C-3 fuel is available for use in unreduced quality", as opposed to B-4:"

"Sämtliche Änderungen sind durch die Forderung bedingt, für die leistungsgesteigerten Motoren auch B4 Kraftstoff minderer Qualität ohne Gefahr verwenden zu können. Da kraftstoff C3 in unverminderter Qualität zur Verfügung steht, werden Motoren 605 ASC und 605 DC, falls sie in dieser Ausführung aufgebaut werden, unverändert wie bisher abgegeben;"

This is the full translation of this text:
All changings underlie the requested to be able to run powerenhanced engines even with lower quality B4 fuel ( they dont say that B4 was in lower quality than before, they only say that B4 was a low quality fuel). Since there is C3 fuel with unreduced quality available, 650ASC and 605DC engines, if they got produced in this model,  get unchanged delivered.

With other words: A revision to a non C3/1,98 ata engine wasnt needed, if it got the right adjusting, and they must have delivered ASC and DC engines before "Reparatur-Anweisung 2. Nachtrag Nr. 191/345 from des Reichministers für Rüstung und Kriegproduktion, in 14 March 1945." I think they dont had a C3 shortcomming, but a main fuel support problem, so they wasnt sure if they was able to dring always the right fuel to the squads. Actually at this late day´s many squads did support themself, by flying or driving to fuelstorages. And of course they didnt land always on their own base, where maybe enough C3 was available, but on bases with only B4.

Since this is a Reparatur-Anweisung (repair instruction), i wonder for whom?? For the units maybe?? If yes, they was able to adjust the engines to what ever fule anyway, but this did need time, so they got order to adjust it to all fuels.

But i guess this wouldnt give the highest power anymore.

So my question: For whom was this repair instruction and would a 'main setting' influence the poweroutput?

This "Reparatur-Anleitung" alone actually proof the delivering of ASC and DC engines before 14 March 1945! If this note was made as instruction of the Squad-Mechanics, it proof that this engines got used too!

Greetings,  Knegel

[Kev367th]

Knegel

My understanding from reading various threads on a little research is -

As standard the K4 could run both C3 and B4 fuel.
Once they had been converted to C3 only, the use of B4 was not allowed.
Reversion to a C3/B4 configuration could not be done at unit level.

You do bring up a interesting point -
"Since there is C3 fuel with unreduced quality available" .  This is a totaly different meaning to
"unrestricted quantity available" as Kurfurst has translated it.
Which translation is accurate?

Would also make sense considering they were having problems with C3 fuel quality at the end of 1944.

[Knegel]

Hi (Edit: i was sure i saw a post by Kurfürst before )

The changing from DB605DB to DC was more difficult than to adjust the ata setting!! At least other spark plugs and a other time of ignition was needed, maybe also a other 'valve worktime'(cam shaft) and/or pistons. Actually i dont know the exact procedure, (Edit-> )i only know it from bike engines, and here all points above are needed to gain a real advantage.

I did read that Butch stated that he think it wasnt possible by the units, but this was a guess, afaik he dont had any documents to prove it.

I just did reread the german 'Reparatur-Anweisung 2', its possible they talk about 1.8ata engines(605DB) in the 1st sentence, so they realy would refer to B4 in low quality, in oposite to my 1st thought(in the way they wrote it, the meaning depends, if they see the 'low quality B4' in relation to former, better B4, or to the in general better C3 fuel) .

Never the less, the delivering of ASC and DC engines is clearely stated!

Greetings,

Knegel

[Knegel]

Hi again,

yes, the DB605DB could run C3, its like using 'Super plus benzine' in a normal 'benzine' car, there was no advantage in this.

But the DB605DC and ASC (both around 2000HP) couldnt run B4 fuel.

Greetings, Knegel

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Knegel
Hi again,

yes, the DB605DB could run C3, its like using 'Super plus benzine' in a normal 'benzine' car, there was no advantage in this.

But the DB605DC and ASC (both around 2000HP) couldnt run B4 fuel.

Greetings, Knegel

Thanks, I thoguht so.

Could you clear up a point in translation -
"Since there is C3 fuel with unreduced quality available"
 This is a totaly different meaning to
"unrestricted quantity available" as Kurfurst has translated it.
Which translation is accurate?

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Kev367th
You do bring up a interesting point -
"Since there is C3 fuel with unreduced quality available" .  This is a totaly different meaning to
"unrestricted quantity available" as Kurfurst has translated it.
Which translation is accurate?

Kurfürst wrote :

Moreover this document tells that "C-3 fuel is available for use in unreduced quality", as opposed to B-4:

"Da kraftstoff C3 in unverminderter Qualität zur Verfügung steht"
mirror translation :
"as fuel C3 in undreduced quality at disposial is /available"

I wonder if you have problems translating even basic German sentences for yourself, what is the base of your statements.

Would also make sense considering they were having problems with C3 fuel quality at the end of 1944. [/B]

Oh, source please.

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Knegel
Hi (Edit: i was sure i saw a post by Kurfürst before )

The changing from DB605DB to DC was more difficult than to adjust the ata setting!! At least other spark plugs and a other time of ignition was needed, maybe also a other 'valve worktime'(cam shaft) and/or pistons. Actually i dont know the exact procedure, (Edit-> )i only know it from bike engines, and here all points above are needed to gain a real advantage.

Knegel

The procedures of converting the DB into DC and vica versa are stated in the reperatur anweisung.

However you seem to have a misconception that such change would be neccesary in all cases. The DC itself could run at either 1.8ata or 1.98ata, the rating is clearly noted in "Leistungen Bf 109 K" documents, and the DC was obviously around itself from December 1944.

Until 1.98ata was cleared, DC engines simply run at 1.8ata. This is stated in 6730. To convert to 1.98ata, the DC engine`s boost regulator would be simply adjusted from 1.8ata to 1.98ata. A 5 min job.
 If the engine was a DB, then it first had to be converted to DC, which could not be done immidiately at Staffel level. Little problem though, given that the whole engine could be swapped in 15 minutes on the 109 in a complete package, so they probably simply swept the replacement engines as they usually did.

[Kev367th]

Wasn't my German translation I was looking at Knegels/your translation.

"as fuel C3 in undreduced quality at disposial is /available"

Unreduced quality does not mean or infer unreduced quantity.
In fact with dwindling front line strengths they still had to keep on cutting fuel supply to non-essential units.

"Fuel quality problems late 44" -
You want a source,OK
"From other documents I know that C3 and B4 had severe quality problems beginning in late 1944."
Look familiar, it should, it comes right off your own website.

[Kurfürst]

I don`t think it really worths to set up a hypothesis, that there shortage of C-3 and because of that, 109 units would not receive C-3, when there`s documentation of C-3 shipments to even Italian units. You missed that train.

As for the allaged quality problems of C-3, I`d like to see the documentation for it, since neither 6730, nro the RAW, nor DB 603 talks from November 1944 notes it but quite the contrary.

[Knegel]

Hi Kev,
actually i took the same translation like Kurfürst, for this part of the text! I dont saw him translating it with quantity.

Kurfürst, most people seems to firmly deny the usage of DB605DC´s and ASC´s, cause they say no C3 was available for 109´s.

The 'Reperatur-Anleitung' clearly state that C3 fuel was in same high quality like before available, therefor there was no request to rebuild the 'C' engines to 'B' engines.

Only the already available 'B' engines did need a different setting, due to a reduced B4 quality.

As your quotes show, the uprating to 1.98 and 1.9 ata did need a delayed ignition and somewhere else i did read about different spark plugs! So the downrating would need the same changings, otherwise the engine lose power, as you can see here.



Gundeinstellung 1.98ata is related to the delayed ignition etc.
In this test they only did use 1.8ata, as you can see the planes did perform better with Grundeinstellung 1.8ata.

Acording to my datas the 1.8ata DC and ASC + MW50 had already 2000HP! I dont know any document about the DC or ASC, which state the powerputput of this engines with 1.98ata, neighter i saw 1.98 ata flight results. (actually i neighter saw 1.8ata + MW50 fighttest)

The simple downrating of the ata setting dont made a 'C' engine to a 'B' engine anyway, even with 1.8 ata, the 'C' engine wasnt able to run B4 fuel without probelms!

AGAIN: The "Reparatur-Anweisung 2. Nachtrag Nr. 191/345 from des Reichministers für Rüstung und Kriegproduktion, in 14 March 1945"  clearly show that 'C' engines got delivered and that C3 fuel was available in high quality.

With other words, already before 14 March 1945 2000HP 109´s was available!

So the question should be 1.8 or 1.98 ata, rather 'how many 'C' engines got delivered??


Greetings, Knegel

[straffo]

100m3 of fuel is really a low amount of fuel.
For a guppe of 3 staffel of 12  me109G with a 400 liter and 300 external  it less than 4 day of operation.

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
I don`t think it really worths to set up a hypothesis, that there shortage of C-3 and because of that, 109 units would not receive C-3, when there`s documentation of C-3 shipments to even Italian units. You missed that train.

As for the allaged quality problems of C-3, I`d like to see the documentation for it, since neither 6730, nro the RAW, nor DB 603 talks from November 1944 notes it but quite the contrary.

Well the C3 quality problems come right of YOUR own website, as part of Olivers research. The same part that lists C3 fuel shortage.
If they had documented C3 fuel quality problems as Oliver states then by brining it up to acceptable levels they are going to lose quantity.
In order to maintain a supply of fuel to frontline units by April 45 the LW had cut supplys to other units to a 1/3 of Jan 45 amounts.
Definately points to a fuel shortage if you ask me.

Didn't miss the ANR fuel status, jsut doesn't pertain to fuel status in Germany.
Good example is the recent fuel shortage here in the U.S. Out of the 5 local gas stations only 1 had premium.
By your hypothesis because that 1 had premium, they all should have it.

Knegel - Before his recent update, his website said 'quantity', now reads 'quality'.

[MiloMorai]

This is what Butch says, and is taken from Kurfie's own 109K-4 web site article:

"And even after the clearance only few gruppen got it because of shortages due not only to C3 production but also to C3 delivery to the units."

"From other documents I know that C3 and B4 had severe quality problems beginning in late 1944."

"At least DB documents underlined the need for cleaner fuels than those in use at that time."

The question is, why does he totally ignore Butch's words?

Knegel,

I am not saying the 109 did not use C3 but am questioning the availability of C3 for 109 units that needed it for 1.98 operation since the 190 had the greater need for C3.

No authentic proof has been produced to show that these units did in fact receive enough C3 to conduct operations in force. Penny pocket operations by the few operational a/c??? No authentic proof has been produced that the 4 Gruppen had completely converted to 1.98.


Still waiting for an answer on what jets the Italians operated Kurfie.