Author Topic: RAF 150 octane  (Read 10195 times)

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #300 on: October 04, 2005, 09:05:35 PM »
Quote
The claim was put in, but credit was given to a flak unit. I imagine the LW intel officer had his reasons . I really dont have any info past that the He 162 put a claim in but that ultimate credit was not officially given by the LW.


Squire,

No Luftwaffe claims are confirmed after November 1944.  It is an impossibility for the flak unit to have been officially "awarded" credit.

Quote
It frequently took more than a year for confirmations to be awarded by Berlin, and it appears that no claim filed after November, 1944, was ever confirmed.


http://www.lesbutler.ip3.co.uk/jg26/claims.htm

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Bruno

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« Reply #301 on: October 04, 2005, 10:48:16 PM »
fyi the He-162, the aircraft,  was not designated as 'Salamander' that was the name of the project  out which the 162 was developed.

The 162 did have several confirmed kills (I will look them up tomorrow) but its kill claims never exceeded own losses. As Crumpp's quote states most of those losses were due to mechanical failures or accidents etc...

It was even less significant then the P-47M...

Offline Bruno

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« Reply #302 on: October 04, 2005, 11:03:52 PM »
one other thing:

Einsatzbereitschaft im Bereich Luftflotte Reich

(scroll to bottom)

original document here:



The translation of the chart is as follows:

Flgz = Aircraft
Besatzung = crew or pilots

Soll = number of aircraft (equipment) assigned

Ist = actual amount, usually this figure differs from the upper

eins = einsatzbereit = serviceable/ working. Can either be given in actual number or percentage.

Stab./JG 1 - was assigned to have 16, but had 0 on hand none serviceable (Keine Meldung)

I./JG 1 - was assigned to have 52, had 16 on hand and only 10 serviceable

III./JG 1 - was assigned to have 52 but have 0 on hand and none serviceable

This was as of Stand: 11.4.45

Offline Squire

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« Reply #303 on: October 04, 2005, 11:33:27 PM »
"No Luftwaffe claims are confirmed after November 1944"

Hmm, well, thats an interesting bit of info. Im not exactly sure where that leaves the LW then, I mean if a pilot claimed a kill, your saying there was no official examination by the Gruppe intel people? at all? How would they formulate any intel as to kills and losses?

In regards to what I have on the He 162, I will post what I have later, and you guys can decide what it means (or doesnt), im off to the show...I hear "Lord of War" is good, always liked Cage.
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Offline Bruno

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« Reply #304 on: October 05, 2005, 01:29:00 AM »
The following comes form the old LEMB forum (I am just posting the relevant information that is sourced. Most of the following comes from various posters on LEMB)

All 162 claims are unconfirmed of course.

However, there are several:

An article by Jean-Claude Mermet that appeared in Aérojournal No 11 (Feb 2000) goes into some detail on He-162 claims:

The first He-162 victory is claimed by Oberst Ihlefeld of  Stab./JG 1. No details are listed.

April 19: Feldwebel Günther Kirschner (type unknown to me)

According to the Germans Kirschner was shot down and killed by Thunderbolts. However, according to Mermet it was mostly likely RAF pilot P/O Walkington of 222 Squadron flying a Tempest who shot down Kirschner. There is no supporting losses by the allies to support a shoot down claim by Kirschner.

May 2: Uffz. Rechberger claims a P-47
No information.

However, a Uffz. Rechenbach reportedly shot down a Mosquito on 25 or 26 April. This claim is supported by 2 witnesses. Schmitt (accounted for in his log book) and Oblt. Eric Demuth. But there is no supporting loss on the allied side.

May 4: Lt. Rudolf Schmitt claims a Typhoon

A single Typhoon of 183 squadron and  a Tempest of 486 Squadron were lost attacking ground targets. Both have been claim at some point as Schmitt's victim. According to Mermet Schmitt's claim is 'without foundation'.

From He-162 action in 'Janes, Battles With The Luftwaffe'

Quote
"I was commander of II./JG11 during the fierce battles and consequent heavy losses in the Reich Defense, April-December 1943, when I shot down 12 Viermots. I was pulled out by Goring and given the task of setting up the new department 'General Recruiting Luftwaffe' in the Reich Air Ministry. At the same time I was appointed in agreement with Reich Youth Leader(A Axmann) honorary Reich Inspector of Hitler Youth Airmen. So I was saddled with the running of two departments at the same time. The Hitler Youth Airmen had 250,000 members who received pre-military training in Hitler Youth camps, followed by flight instruction(in a selective process for suitability) by the NSFK(the party flying corps, Generaloberst Keller) in their gliding camps. About march 1944 I was ordered to report to Goring on the Obersalzberg, together with Prof W. Messerschmitt, in order to express my opinion on the Volksjager(peoples fighter) project and the possibilities of using selected Hitler Youth pilots. About June 1944 there was a meeting at the Reich Air Ministry under the chairmanship of Keller with Milch, Sauer, Knemeyer, myself and others to discuss the Volksjager project. Here things began to take shape with a reference to a development by Heinkel. It so transpired that, when I was once again with Goring at Karinhall to make my report, the idea of a Jagdgeschwader 'Hitler Youth' with the name 'Oesau was to be realised. It was also decided that this Geschwader was to be equipped with Volksjager(which were still in the development stage). In September 1944 I took part in the so called Volksjager conference at Rastenburg. Galland and Messerschmitt were in favour of giving priority to the Me 262. But Sauer, Galland having meanwhile fallen out of favour with Goring, succeed with his idea of mass production of the Volksjager. In the middle of December 1944 I was ordered to Vienna to attend the first display of the He 162, which ended tragically. Back in Berlin a few days later I had a serious clash with Generaloberst Keller about the possible use of the He 162 for "my Hitler Youth airmen". He did not share my doubts about the Volksjager and advised for its mass production at another meeting with Goring a few days later, in the presence of Gollob. I did not suspect at the time how heavily I would be involved with the He 162 later.

In January 1945 I was Ordered to Rechlin in order to fly and test the He 162. I was given initial instructions on it by Bar(Obstlt Heinz Bar),with whom I had been in Tunisia. After the first circuit it had become obvious to me that, unless decisive changes were made to the machine, this aircraft would be out of the question for Hitler youths coming straight from gliders without intermediate training on other and proven fighters. I informed Goring about my impressions in a priority report! I also informed Keller who meanwhile had flown the He 162. At the beginning of March I was ordered to Goslar to form a yet unnamed fighter Geschwader where I, under Gollob, first assembled ground personnel made up of various fighter Geschwaders to a 'new mob'

In the middle of March the first 32 He 162s arrived, from Travemunde, I believe and we began immediately with the training of the pilots(not Hitler Youth) who had meanwhile arrived from various fighter training schools. It turned out that the conversion training brought no problems, only the lack of fuel causes us difficulties! Enemy formations daily passed overhead without us being able, nor permitted to interfere. On 15 April 1945 I was able to take off for a sortie with the first section, but as we had been sent to the wrong place by fighter control, we failed to make contact with the enemy. We did not operate again until the 21st of the month because of bad weather, when I was able to score the first Abschuss, a P-47, with the He 162. On landing the weak undercarriage collapsed under me and I ended up on my belly. On 22 April Lt Bartz also shot down a P-47 and that was the end of this nameless Geschwader which was to have been named 'Hitler Youth'. As the Americans were meanwhile getting uncomfortably close to the Harz, the remaining He 162s were flown from Goslar to Travemunde and the entire Geschwader was sent to the Harz for ground fighting as infantry. I received orders, again from Loerzer, to take over the Bucker project at Friedersdorf, where I, together with Hptm. Purps, on 1 may 1945 did a night sortie against the approaching tank units of the Red Army between Kustin and Landsberg, but without success as the defensive fire of the Russians was so heavy that, riddled with hits from infantry arms, we had to give up further attempts. I spent the remaining days with Loerzer in the personnel department of the Reich Air Ministry"


Oberst Adolf Dickfield, 132 kill claims. However, quite a number of Dickfield's claims can not be confirmed. For example, he claim 12 bombers while flying with JG 11, only 2 can be confirmed.

EDIT:

The old post was carried over to the new LEMB and can be found here:

He 162 in action.

Another post with an interesting pic...

Erich Demuth of I./JG1

It shows the rudder of Oblt. Eric Demuth's 162 indicating 16 kills. It's highly doubtful he had 16 kills in a 162 and mostly likely this is his own personal kill claim total on all types he flew.

Also, in regards to the 163's combat service see:

163 in combat
« Last Edit: October 05, 2005, 01:40:06 AM by Bruno »

Offline Squire

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« Reply #305 on: October 05, 2005, 02:48:39 AM »
Ahh, my book "German Jet Aces of WW2" says "JG/1s sole jet claim".

So again, the devil is in the very narrow wording.

It says "Lt. Schmitt of 1 Staffel made JG/1s sole jet claim, a low flying RAF Typhoon. It was not allowed, credited instead to a nearby flak unit", and its says it happened on May 1, 1945, flying a He 162.

So I guess it was unnofficially unconfirmed? I wont spend too much time on that, I really dont think it matters. Anyways, thats what it says. Would you argue with a bunch of liquored up 13 year old flak gunners sporting lugers? I wouldnt. :)

In the appendix it gives the breakdown of "jet units and approximate kills":

Me262s:

Epro 262: 12
KG/51: 8+
III Erganzungsjagdgeschwader 2: 40
Kommando Nowotny: 22
JG/7: 500
Kommando Welter (10/NGJ II): 48
JV 44: 55+
KJ 54: 50

Others:

Kommando Bonow (Ar234): 0
JG/400 (Me163): 10
JG/1 (He 162): 0
« Last Edit: October 05, 2005, 02:55:20 AM by Squire »
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Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #306 on: October 05, 2005, 05:32:21 AM »
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May 2: Uffz. Rechberger claims a P-47


I wonder if it was a P 47M?

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Kurfürst

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« Reply #307 on: October 05, 2005, 05:39:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bruno
one other thing:

Einsatzbereitschaft im Bereich Luftflotte Reich

(scroll to bottom)

original document here:



Nice stuff Bruno! Where did you find it, I am looking for stuff exactly like that!
The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site
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Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #308 on: October 05, 2005, 07:39:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
I wonder if it was a P 47M?

All the best,

Crumpp


Nope, as the 56th flew its last mission on April 21 with A formation going to Salzburg in support of bombers and B formation going to Munich on a free-lance. Cloud cover had the B-24s recalled and the formation did a free-lance sweep. The only a/c seen were Allied.

Missions on the 17, 18, 20 were equally barron, no LW a/c to be found.:eek:

Must have been no fuel for the LW to fly.

Offline Angus

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« Reply #309 on: October 05, 2005, 10:07:27 AM »
They were busy emptying their lighters into a bin :D
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Bruno

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« Reply #310 on: October 05, 2005, 05:25:25 PM »
Quote
Nice stuff Bruno! Where did you find it, I am looking for stuff exactly like that!


It was posted on another forum in a thread about JG400 and the Ho-229.

I will see if I can find it. However, if you follow the link to Mike Holm's site that is the complete document.

EDIT:

I just realized the link I posted is busted, here it is corrected:

Einsatzbereitschaft im Bereich Luftflotte Reich
« Last Edit: October 05, 2005, 05:27:50 PM by Bruno »