Author Topic: chairboy...ACLU  (Read 2458 times)

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #45 on: September 17, 2005, 12:25:55 PM »
Not to mention the Department of Justice report that was commisioned I believe when klinton was in power.... The report falt out concludes that "the people" means just that.... an individual right not a collective or state right...     If it doesn't then we are in trouble with the other amendments.

MT.. get her to read the links charon posted and then she might instruct you to change "your" mind.

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Offline Sandman

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« Reply #46 on: September 17, 2005, 12:53:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charon
I don't know Sandy. The debat has been civil enough. Has it gone down hill because,  it's hard not to see a bias in the ACLU where this right is concerned? As much as I hate saying the word (since it is almost a cartoon icon these days) a liberal as bias?

I don't think you're a big fan of firearm ownership. Of course, you don't have to be. Similarly, a lot of people aren't fans of flag burining. But, either the rights that enable those are valid or they have become outdated and you come up with a legislative solution to nullify or modify those rights.

Charon


Don't get me wrong. I view firearms as tools. I grew up in a rural area and we always had shotguns and rifles, but we had no use for handguns. I just can't get excited about them the way a lot of other people do.
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Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #47 on: September 17, 2005, 01:03:24 PM »
You don't have to be excited about firearms to recognize that our rights to have them must be maintained.

I'm a guy, so any law that says women can't vote wouldn't affect me, right?  That doesn't mean that I wouldn't fight to keep that ammendment on the books and effective, because it's important.

Same with the Illinois Nazis and their right to speak.  I hate 'em, but I'll fight for their right to excercise the 1st ammendment, because it's important.  The rights of the majority are never in danger, the true measure of a society is how it protects the rights of the minority.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline jEEZY

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« Reply #48 on: September 17, 2005, 01:09:38 PM »
I was very lucky that my constitutional law professor took the 2nd amendment seriously. Indeed, 99% of con law classes taught in law schools do not cover the 2nd amendment. That being said, my con law prof was, to put it mildly, a liberal ivory tower type. Even he, said that the 2nd amendment protects an individual right. Indeed, when one of classmates tried to assert the "collective rights model" he browbeat her (academically that is) into submission and tears.

The issues that arise in the modern 2nd amendment arguments have been well fleshed out here. But perhaps I can shed some more legal light, and focus the debate. Miller is not considered good law by any well informed con law professor, nor by many federal judges. Generally it is considered to be an uncitable case (just as Korematsu is). Although technically "good law" in that it has never been overruled, it will never be cited by the sup ct, and the fact that it was, essentially, an ex-parte case makes it that much more distasteful.

As for the 9th cir, they have said, and it has become circuit law, that the 2nd amendment is indeed a collective right held by the states. Recently, however, the 5th circuit in United States v. Emerson held that the 2nd amendment is unequivocally an individual right. This is what as known as a circuit split; generally a fast track to cert to the Supremes. However, the Supremes have ducked this one--cert denials in all cases have been unanimous.

The real debate, at least in con law circles are the contours of the 2nd amendment--what does it exactly protect. All agree that the states and feds (to a lesser degree) can prohibit felons from possessing arms (note only firearms). However, can congress prohibit measdemeants from owning firearms? The answer, at least in congress' eyes is yes, google the launetberg amendment if you dont believe me--I tried to convince the fed judge i worked for to strike it down (he declined my invite). What about licensing? I think that we could look to the abortion debate and the answers there for a good analog--e.g. Casey v. planned parenthood and use the obstacles test.

Oh, as for the text of the amendment. A militia by both federal and state law is every able bodied man between he ages of 18 and 45 (sometimes older) every state in the union has a law to this effect (look for unorganized militia in the index). The feds have the same law. Note the national guard is not a militia. As for the words "well regulated", in 18th century English this meant disciplined--not regulated in the post-new deal sense the word has taken on. The rest of the text probably mirrors our modern understanding.

And, lastly, the bazooka argument (this also applies to the howitzer argument  ect. Those generally are explosive devices not covered by the text "arms." These argument are generally fallacious as being "slippery slope" and are unresponsive to say assault weapon bans.  

If anyone needs cites, or wants some cites to the latest scholarly articles just pm me, or let me know on this form.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2005, 01:13:37 PM by jEEZY »

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #49 on: September 17, 2005, 02:02:35 PM »
Thank you jEEzy, that was very enlightening.

And it kind of made my point. People of good conscience can disagree on the issue. I think the fact that it is a Circuit split points this out nicely.

Now go shoot something lazs.

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #50 on: September 17, 2005, 02:42:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
You don't have to be excited about firearms to recognize that our rights to have them must be maintained.


I can recognize it. I'm just not going to get passionate over it. The arguments for and against guns in this country always seem to be one extreme versus the other.

Yeah, there's a reason why we have a right to bear arms. Yes, there are also limitations on that right, just as there are for the other rights. Neither the pro-gun nor the anti-gun types seem to accept this position so I'll just stay out of it and let them scream at each other. They don't need my help.
sand

Offline jEEZY

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« Reply #51 on: September 17, 2005, 02:52:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target


And it kind of made my point. People of good conscience can disagree on the issue. I think the fact that it is a Circuit split points this out nicely.



Actually...the collective rights model is well-settled as the correct interpretaion, nobody has published a serious article otherwise in over thirty years. A circuit split only denotes a political split, not necessarily a split in understanding. Indeed, one of the most liberal law prof, Amar, came to the collective rights model while researching an article he wanted to right on the collective rights model. In my view, cogent research clearly indicates an induvidual right in the 2nd amendment.

My 2 cents is thus: to read the 2nd amnd as a collective right granted to the states to effectively arm a militia  would contradict the very tenents of the constitution itself. Namely, the constitution is built on the assumtion that the people hold rights  before the existence of the government, and that the people grant the government some of these rights "in order to form a more perfect union[.]" The most elequent exhibition of this concept was penned in the Declaration of  Independence: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men,  deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed[.]" The collective rights model turns this concept on its head, and in essence posits that the right to bear arms is a right given to the govts for them to cede to the people as they wish--an untenable position, both given the text of the 2nd amnd and the overall aim of the constitution as a whole.

Offline SaburoS

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« Reply #52 on: September 18, 2005, 01:44:42 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Miler vs US,  Decided MAY 15, 1939



World War I - 1918 Winchester Modely 97 Trench gun





World War II - 1941 Browning A-5 Short barreled shotgun

 

VietNam - 1960's Winchester Modle 12 Trench gun

 



It's obvious Miller was wrongly decided. Well, to anyone with an open mind.


And none of those are sawed off shotguns. How about a pic of a sawed off similar to Miller's?
Also what tactical military value does a sawed off shotgun have?
Heck, show me a battle where sawed off shotguns were used as a favored weapon.
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Offline Pooh21

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« Reply #53 on: September 18, 2005, 02:39:23 AM »
Heck ride a horse into battle and you will see about 54 times the need for a sawed off shotty
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Offline SaburoS

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« Reply #54 on: September 18, 2005, 02:41:46 AM »
Oh BTW. I do not favor the govt banning personal firearms (semi, full auto, single shot, etc.), even sawed off shotguns.
I do support banning personal ownership of WMDs, Bombs, Grenades, Antitank weapons, Tanks, etc ;)
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #55 on: September 18, 2005, 02:46:39 AM »
Tanks??? Saburo do you also support banning of private ownership of fighter airplanes?

Offline SaburoS

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« Reply #56 on: September 18, 2005, 02:50:39 AM »
Disarmed, no.
One with full armaments and avionics, yes.

Heck, I would love having my own F16 just for the thrill of flying it. I wouldn't find it nec to have it with weapons and ECM capability.
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline Toad

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« Reply #57 on: September 18, 2005, 07:16:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SaburoS
And none of those are sawed off shotguns. How about a pic of a sawed off similar to Miller's?
Also what tactical military value does a sawed off shotgun have?
Heck, show me a battle where sawed off shotguns were used as a favored weapon.

 
OK, here's the standard:

Quote
when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time.


First, do you know the actual length of the barrel in the Miller vs US case?

Are you prepared to say that a shotgun with a 20" barrel is not "sawed off" and is of the kind in common use at the time but a shotgun with a barrel length of 17 7/8" is somehow different?

You're saying 20" is in common use but 17 7/8" is somehow radically different? The overall length of a trench gun is ~39.5" but if the o/l length was 36.9 it's now "not in common use"?

... and I have a follow-up, your honor.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2005, 07:24:14 AM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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« Reply #58 on: September 18, 2005, 07:28:16 AM »
Quote
Also what tactical military value does a sawed off shotgun have?


Hmmm... ask the guys in the 10th Mountain......

Military Firearms -- LSS (Lightweight Shotgun System)


Quote
The main application for a shotgun is MOUT, military operations in urban settings.



If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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« Reply #59 on: September 18, 2005, 09:00:36 AM »
Oh, one other thing about Miller V US:

"In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a 'shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length' at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation of efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument."

Quote
The bootleggers might have won their case by arguing that sawed-off shotguns were used by U.S. infantrymen in World War I. However, neither Miller, Layton nor their attorney showed up in court. Only the prosecution presented its case.

Lacking sufficient evidence to rule on the case, the justices sent it back to the lower court for additional fact-finding. But the fact-finding never took place. Jack Miller was shot dead by unknown assailants. Frank Layton pleaded guilty and got four years probation.




Might have been real interesting if Miller/Layton had had a top-notch attorney that showed up to present the judges with some evidence of shotgun use in the military.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!