raider179 was right...

[Hangtime]

* crackle*static*

freedom is just anuther wurd fer nothin left ta lose..

* crackle*static*

And now a few words from our forbears..

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.  ~Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.  ~James Madison, speech, Virginia Convention, 1788

He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from opposition; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach himself.  ~Thomas Paine

Nothing is more difficult, and therefore more precious, than to be able to decide.  ~Napoleon Bonaparte

Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves.  ~Abraham Lincoln

We on this continent should never forget that men first crossed the Atlantic not to find soil for their ploughs but to secure liberty for their souls.  ~Robert J. McCracken

Freedom is that instant between when someone tells you to do something and when you decide how to respond.  ~Jeffrey Borenstein

Liberty has never come from the government.  Liberty has always come from the subjects of it.  The history of liberty is a history of resistance.  ~Woodrow Wilson

Freedom is not enough.  ~Lyndon B. Johnson

We have enjoyed so much freedom for so long that we are perhaps in danger of forgetting how much blood it cost to establish the Bill of Rights.  ~Felix Frankfurter

The contest for ages has been to rescue liberty from the grasp of executive power.  ~Daniel Webster

Men fight for liberty and win it with hard knocks.  Their children, brought up easy, let it slip away again, poor fools.  And their grandchildren are once more slaves.  ~D.H. Lawrence, Classical American Literature, 1922

We now return you to the incessant nitwits nannypower hour ...

[Nash]

When you stop at a traffic light, your freedoms are abridged.

But you accept that small encroachment on your personal freedom because you don't really feel like dying. And you realize that in order for society to function, there have got to be some rules in how we conduct ourselves.

So far, so good?

Now lets go all the way to the extreme other side. You won't accept dressing everyone up in Nerf uniforms so that people live to the ripe old age of a hundred, just bouncing off of each other.

And I'm with ya there.

So now we're talking about that middle area: Between what is acceptable, and what is going too far. This is why new laws get created, and old laws get tossed. Toad is suddenly in favor of the Constitution being a "living" document... so perhaps he can explain it.

And since you guys love to quote dead famous people in a way that would back up your arguments (which at this point, I honestly no longer understand), then pray tell: What did Jefferson have to say about someone walking onto the sub, sitting down, and crankin' Ludacris on his ghetto-blaster?

What did Thomas Paine have to say about spray paint?

Nothing? Okay then... It turns out that we aren't living in the olden times.

And no, you don't get to do just whatever the hell you want. I'm sorry, gentlemen. Life isn't fair and all of that. I'm sure you'll live.

[Holden McGroin]

lib·er·ty  
1. The condition of being free from restriction or control.
2. The right and power to act, believe, or express oneself in a manner of one's own choosing.
3. The condition of being physically and legally free from confinement, servitude, or forced labor. See Synonyms at freedom.

The only reason given for the restriction of liberty in the seat belt case is because the public must pay the price of the medical bills of the person not strapped in.  

Hence a fine of say $100.  I am sure that offsets the medical bills of those who refuse to buckle up.

Restriction of that choice is somewhat similar to restriction of the choice of a woman on reproductive rights. My body, my choice.  Your wallet your choice.

All the public needs to do to save the money it spends on this particular item is to stop paying the bills.  Let the individual be responsible for his own body.

[Nash]

How do you  "let" the individual be responsible for his own body when you have to end up paying to get it fixed?

You know... The Oath of Hippocrates...?

How do you square that?

[Toad]

Originally posted by Nash
Toad is suddenly in favor of the Constitution being a "living" document... so perhaps he can explain it....


...Nothing? Okay then... It turns out that we aren't living in the olden times...

Item 1: The Constitution says what it says. It wasn't written in today's flowery "we can make this mean anything we say it means" lawyer language. It's pretty simple and straightforward and there's plenty of writing from the Framers to show exactly what they meant.

There will always be those who wish to twist to to their own corrupted meaning, of course.

Item 2: While Jefferson didn't have an IPod that doesn't mean the concepts of freedom and the principles of good government that he delineated are somehow no longer valid, of merit or worthy of regard.

It's turns out that we aren't living in olden times but it also turns out that the truths that the Founders discussed, wrote about and formed this government around are timeless.

For which I am most thankful.

Oh yeah.. I almost forgot.

"Under the law of nature, all men are born free, every one comes into the world with a right to his own person, which includes the liberty of moving and using it at his own will. This is what is called personal liberty, and is given him by the Author of nature, because necessary for his own sustenance." --Thomas Jefferson

[Nash]

Wait a sec, Toad.... A short while ago, you used Jefferson to demonstrate that the Constitution indeed was a living document, and as such, meant to be interpreted.

Which would you have it?

The Constitution is amazing. I'm honestly in awe of it.

But you're now trying to bend its "principles" to match your personal whims.

When it comes to seatbelts, you say "Look to Jefferson!" But Jefferson didn't say a lick about seatbelts. Jefferson laid out principles - as you say. We both get to bend our interpretation of his intent as it would regard seatbelts, equally.

It is just not enough to say "Jefferson" and claim solid ground.

[Holden McGroin]

  Hippocrates, the father of medicine
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Hippocratic Oath -- Classical Version

I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panaceia and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfil according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant:

To hold him who has taught me this art as equal to my parents and to live my life in partnership with him, and if he is in need of money to give him a share of mine, and to regard his offspring as equal to my brothers in male lineage and to teach them this art - if they desire to learn it - without fee and covenant; to give a share of precepts and oral instruction and all the other learning to my sons and to the sons of him who has instructed me and to pupils who have signed the covenant and have taken an oath according to the medical law, but no one else.

I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice.

I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.

I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work.

Whatever houses I may visit, I will come for the benefit of the sick, remaining free of all intentional injustice, of all mischief and in particular of sexual relations with both female and male persons, be they free or slaves.

What I may see or hear in the course of the treatment or even outside of the treatment in regard to the life of men, which on no account one must spread abroad, I will keep to myself, holding such things shameful to be spoken about.

If I fulfil this oath and do not violate it, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and art, being honored with fame among all men for all time to come; if I transgress it and swear falsely, may the opposite of all this be my lot.

It says a doctor should pay for his education,  It says do no harm, where does it say we must pay for medical treatment?

[Nash]

Ask any doctor.....

If a wounded patient lies before you, you treat them. It's sacrosanct.

So lets do this in rewind.

A doctor leaves the ER.... your wife is whisked back to the scene of her accident. She is placed back into the car, and the emergency vehicles reverse out.

This is unworkable, my friend. She has got to go to the hospital. Anything else would be inhumane and ugly.

And as soon as she arrives at the hospital? Folks gotta get paid.

[Holden McGroin]

So it's not in the oath... okay

Yes, if I happen by a swollen creek and I see someone drowning, I would be compelled to render aid.

If possible I would pull them out, get them breathing, get them warm, get them some dry clothes.  When I find out they went in swimming in flood waters just for the hell of it, I would cease to render any more aid.   If he jumped in again I would wave goodbye to him and call the guy an idiot.

[Nash]

You're trying to ask me to envision a world where smashed-up cars and bleeding humans are left on the side of the road to die.

Really. That's what your trying to sell me. And that aint gonna happen.

If I gotta contribute to their hospital tab, I'd rather that, than seeing vultures on my morning commute.

Cop car comes? $.

Ambulance? $

Hospital stay? $

Out of my pocket and yours.

Now if only they woulda just buckled up. But noooo.... The whole idea of that would enrage Jefferson or something.

[Sixpence]

"Under the law of nature, all men are born free, every one comes into the world with a right to his own person, which includes the liberty of moving and using it at his own will. This is what is called personal liberty, and is given him by the Author of nature, because necessary for his own sustenance." --Thomas Jefferson

Hmmm, but how would he feel about people walking around with no clothes? Did they allow this in towns? Would he leave the decision up to local government at the state or town level?

You can look at that quote and deem it as "man should be able to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants" , but I am not buying that

[SaburoS]

How about this paradox?
A woman's right to abort her pregnancy.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Jackal1
The  subject being freedom, freedom of choice and constitutional rights.

No, the main discussion in this thread has been about seatbelts. That is a FACT - I wouldn't expect you to understand.

But I did a little research of my own on the word counts, just to be sure what this thread was about. Yours and HMcG's hyping of the word "freed*m" did not manage to skew the stats the way you wanted because... you forgot that as well as "seatbelt" some people spell it "seat belt", as you did in your first sentence in this thread. So, I counted the words "seat" and "belt" separately, because of the alternative spelling and because in some cases people have referred to them simply as "belts".

The bubject of this thread - LOL

So, the revised counts - even with Jack/HMcG hyping are -

• independence   2
• declaration   3
• jefferson 12
• citizen 18
• constitution 42
• choice  93
• freedom  228 - after a great deal of hyping!
  • seat 402
  • belt 430[/color]
  You still want to tell me what this thread is about?
  

[moot]

.. or how to argue around the point at any half-opportunity.

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by beet1e

You still want to tell me what this thread is about?
 

  Why. sure Beetle. Glad to help out when you are having such a rough time understanding it.
  The thread is about freedom, freedom of choice and constitutional rights. Sorry you missed that the first 20 or so times it was explained.
  You should read it sometime, but then again, it might bore you because it doesn`t pertain to loyal subjects of the Queen.