Author Topic: North Korea blinks  (Read 1443 times)

Offline Toad

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North Korea blinks
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2005, 06:48:02 PM »
EAGL

Can you drop in on the F-14 "last mission" thread and give us an opinion on F-14 v F-15 in a knifefite? Thanks!


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Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2005, 06:55:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman
Well, we can't really afford another $200B mistake now can we? :)


You might want to take that arguement up with the relatives of those who were fed to woodchippers under Saddams iron fist...:huh

Offline Squire

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« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2005, 07:07:33 PM »
"I remember a few years ago Israel bombed a reactor, was that in Iraq or Iran?"

It was Iraq, and they were roundly criticised for it, as I recall. Im sure behind the cameras they were all grinning like chesire cats though. Nobody in the west wants to see another mid east country with a reactor.

As for NK, they wanted aid, and they know how to play us, they were just doing what they do best. Screwing around.
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Offline Godzilla

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« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2005, 07:11:31 PM »
Of course, the difference is that the US spend 14 years trying to get Iraq in compliance.

Bush has always said that NK would be approached diplomaticaly.

Also, I don't think Iraq was a mistake. It has already paid off in Libya and God knows how many other places, including NK it seems.

After Iraq is said and done, it will be seen as a major change for the good in the middle east, in my opinion. It's going to be a world changing event for the better.

Offline SaburoS

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« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2005, 07:18:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
You might want to take that arguement up with the relatives of those who were fed to woodchippers under Saddams iron fist...:huh

I would actually they take up resistance to Saddam and overthrown him themselves. If they ask for help then we should go in. That's when we'd actually see parades honoring our intervention.
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline Toad

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« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2005, 07:23:13 PM »
I believe they tried to do just that after Gulf War I. The filtered word is, of course, Shi  Ite.

The Ghosts of 1991

Quote

The spontaneous *****e uprising of 1991 consumed the southern part of Iraq right up to the approaches to Baghdad. Rebels came to U.S. troops, who were then deployed in the Euphrates Valley, begging for U.S. intervention. The *****e political parties sent emissaries to the few Americans who would see them. To this day, I am haunted by the desperation in the appeals made to me by one group, as they realized time was running out for their countrymen.

Many of the problems we face now and in the future with *****es likely have to do with the way the first Bush administration responded to those appeals. On Feb. 15, 1991, President George H.W. Bush called on the Iraqi military and people to overthrow Saddam Hussein. On March 3, an Iraqi tank commander returning from Kuwait fired a shell through one of the portraits of Hussein in Basra's main square, igniting the southern uprising. A week later, Kurdish rebels ended Hussein's control over much of the north.

But although Bush had called for the rebellion, his administration was caught unprepared when it happened. The administration knew little about those in the Iraqi opposition because, as a matter of policy, it refused to talk to them. Policymakers tended to see Iraq's main ethnic groups in caricature: The *****es were feared as pro-Iranian and the Kurds as anti-Turkish. Indeed, the U.S. administration seemed to prefer the continuation of the Baath regime (albeit without Hussein) to the success of the rebellion. As one National Security Council official told me at the time: "Our policy is to get rid of Saddam, not his regime."

The practical expression of this policy came in the decisions made by the military on the ground. U.S. commanders spurned the rebels' plea for help. The United States allowed Iraq to send Republican Guard units into southern cities and to fly helicopter gunships. (This in spite of a ban on flights, articulated by Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf with considerable swagger: "You fly, you die.") The consequences were devastating. Hussein's forces leveled the historical centers of the *****e towns, bombarded sacred *****e shrines and executed thousands on the spot. By some estimates, 100,000 people died in reprisal killings between March and September. Many of these atrocities were committed in proximity to American troops, who were under orders not to intervene.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline SaburoS

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« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2005, 07:59:03 PM »
Yeah that was a sad chapter. I believe we actually were helping the resistance in the beginning as Bush had promised.
It was back channel protests of the Saudi Arabia and Jordan govts that convinced us to stop our support.

Saudi being Sunni didn't want to see the *****es taking power as they knew payback would be coming to the Sunnis. They definitely didn't want to see another Iranian style theocratic government come to power.

Those mass grave images we see contain those brave rebels tried and killed for "treason".

They had 70% control of Iraq, and we bailed on them. Damn.
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline Squire

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« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2005, 08:13:24 PM »
1991 Gulf War should have ended with Husseins regime toppled. I remember the reasons given for not going to Baghdad. #1 was loss of support amongst the Arab Allies (which were not needed), and #2 was the taking of Baghdad was supposed to be some "big deal" militarily (which it turned out not to be).

Then we ended up with having to mess around with Saddam crushing the revolt that never was, UN sanctions, no fly zones and food for oil and all that nonsense that did not work, and that dragged on for more than a decade. Fast forward to 2003, and invasion #2 goes in to finish the job. Baghdad falls like a house of cards, and Saddam goes down a hole with a pistol...

I think Bush Sr. was badly advised. Too much "this wont look good on CNN" over what needed to be finished. The blame can be shared by the leaders of the 1991 Coalition as well though, all of them, who didnt have the stones to see it through.  If it was going to be "too ugly for TV" (highway of death ect), then they should have never invaded.

The 1991 War had broad international support, there was a clear mandate to do it (western oil, a threat to Saudi Arabia, and the invasion of Kuwait), and the opportunity was squandered.  Instead it took 12 years to finish the job properly, dressed up in an unpopular "hunt for WMD", and link to terrorism. Valid reasons, but not as strong as the original mandate was by any stretch.
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Offline Sandman

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« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2005, 08:18:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
You might want to take that arguement up with the relatives of those who were fed to woodchippers under Saddams iron fist...:huh


I'm sure they love it. It's not their ****ing taxes paying for it.

Quote
   1991 Gulf War should have ended with Husseins regime toppled. I remember the reasons given for not going to Baghdad. #1 was loss of support amongst the Arab Allies (which were not needed), and #2 was the taking of Baghdad was supposed to be some "big deal" militarily (which it turned out not to be).


Even Bush 41 knew that the occupation wouldn't be easy.
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Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #39 on: September 19, 2005, 08:48:13 PM »
Dejavu. :)


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North Korea Demands Nuke Reactor From U.S.
AP - 3 minutes ago

SEOUL, South Korea - North Korea demanded Tuesday that the United States give it a light water nuclear reactor before it rejoins the international Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and ends its weapons program. The North's Foreign Ministry made the demand a day after it agreed at six-nation talks in Beijing to give up its arms efforts, rejoin the treaty, and accept inspections by the International Atomic Energy Agency. "We will return to the NPT and sign the safeguards agreement with the IAEA and comply with it immediately upon the U.S. provision of LWRs, a basis of confidence-building to us," the ministry said in the statement, carried by the North's official Korean Central News Agency.
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Toad

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North Korea blinks
« Reply #40 on: September 19, 2005, 09:34:36 PM »
In any event the She Ites and the Kurds DID try to do it themselves in '91.

Apparently we all would prefer they did it themselves..... and when they tried we didn't help them.

Good thing those @#$)*V @_  French gave us a hand when we needed it though.  :)

Otherwise we'd all still be doing the "God Save The Queen" thing.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Bodhi

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« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2005, 09:37:10 PM »
So, I suspect that since NK is willing to end research that they have a good grasp on bomb making technology, and have several nukes with delivery capability now.....
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Offline Suave

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« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2005, 10:00:22 PM »
LOL Classic DPRK.

Quote
North Korea Demands Nuke reactor from US.


http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050920/ap_on_re_as/nkorea_reactor

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2005, 10:14:19 PM »
Right on top of everything, huh? :)
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Charon

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« Reply #44 on: September 19, 2005, 10:34:43 PM »
Wow, that sure took long :) If the negations for the cease fire are any indication, North Korean astronauts will be landing on the moon in plutonium powered rockets about the time the "reactor for arms" talks end in 2050. The debate about the color the containment vessle will be painted will eat up a year or two alone.

Charon
« Last Edit: September 19, 2005, 10:40:20 PM by Charon »