Author Topic: Super vrs Uber  (Read 20949 times)

Offline humble

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« Reply #90 on: September 29, 2005, 05:10:21 PM »
I never said it was, I said that from 40 to 44 german 109's were stationed ~ 26 miles from Great Britain.

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Offline OttoJ

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« Reply #91 on: September 29, 2005, 05:18:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bronk
Thats 1 and now post the rest.
My point is most of those pilots racked up those kills because they flew from the spanish civil war to the end of the war in  
europe. That mean they were shooting down mostly obsolete aircraft. Probably biplanes.


I'm not going to research the service histories of HUNDREDS of 109 aces for you. Do your own research. You tell me, how many of the 109 aces served in Legion Kondor?

Offline Bruno

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« Reply #92 on: September 29, 2005, 05:25:31 PM »
Quote
Bruno, Calais was situated in the lands of the Third Reich for several years so could be considered part of Germany.


It was always 'France'. It was occuppied and adminstered by Germany but it was never 'in Germany' or incoporated into Germany proper.

Quote
I never said it was, I said that from 40 to 44 german 109's were stationed ~ 26 miles from Great Britain.


But you made a point of replying to me.

I replied to F4s question:

Quote
Is Germany really just 26 miles from England??


You defended his question...

Offline Bronk

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« Reply #93 on: September 29, 2005, 05:26:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by OttoJ
I'm not going to research the service histories of HUNDREDS of 109 aces for you. Do your own research. You tell me, how many of the 109 aces served in Legion Kondor?


Probably some good reading and i'll  probably check a few out.

Now how about answering my 109 question. Either you dont know orrrr you dont want to answer.  Probably becuse the last 109 to fire a shot in anger was at least a decade before f4u and the p51d  .



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Offline HoHun

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« Reply #94 on: September 29, 2005, 06:05:11 PM »
Hi F4UDOA,

>But I am pretty sure that the later models G6 and up would have a pretty hard time doing that even without the F4U using it's combat flaps.

Don't get fixated on wing loading, power loading plays an important role, too, and is considerably improved in the late-war Messerschmitts with MW50-injection. The Me 109 has camber changing flaps and flaperons, so it would benefit from "combat flaps", too.

>The small design with high wingloading left no room for growth and limited the capability of the aircraft before if ever left the drawing board.

It was not a Mustang, but to translate that defect into "outdated in 1934" is rather silly, especially as the Luftwaffe didn't need a Mustang.

>The point of my original post was simply that the war was really over by mid 1944 anyway.

The USAAF heavy bomber attrition levels remained high right to the end of 1944, but dropped after that, indicating the ineffectiveness of Luftwaffe after that. The Luftwaffe was mostly limited to the defense of the Reich, but they lasted longer than mid-1944 in that role.

>All of the newer German designs were on hand for combat because

>1. They were already at the front.
>2. The aircraft the allies had were doing a fine job.

You're understimating the difficulties of technological development, and overestimating the difficulties of shipping aircraft. That the air war was fought over Germany meant the German factories were bombed, so the introduction of new German types was delayed, not speeded up.

On the other hand, aircraft that didn't make it to the front, whether Axis or Allies, were invariably late for a reason. The P-80 for example was sent to Europe, where one example crashed and burned, leading to the type being grounded. It was not even fit for demonstration flights at that point, and the type wasn't cleared for operational use until long after VE day (maybe even after VJ day).

>There are several less than optimal features on the F4U that could be changes or added but you don't see those threads popping up every day.

The F4U lobby is doing a poor job, that's all ;-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline OttoJ

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« Reply #95 on: September 29, 2005, 06:05:22 PM »
I would think the Israelis were the last to use the 109 in war. Why is this important to you?

Offline Bronk

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« Reply #96 on: September 29, 2005, 07:03:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by OttoJ
When the F4U's were being rolled over the side of their carriers and the P-47's were chopped up for scrap, the 109 was still in production. Funny the 109 outlived all its wartime rivals.

Just seems funny when the f4u was in actual combat. When the spanish had some 109 to get rid of. I guess the hondurans and the el salvadorans didnt want an inferior plane.


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Offline Bronk

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« Reply #97 on: September 29, 2005, 07:08:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MiloMorai
[.

The last 109s built (Spanish) used Rolls-Royce Merlin engines.:aok

Several 109s flew in Spain until 1965.

F[/B]



Gee why didnt hondras and el salvador buy them up cheap.
According to kurfurst and otto they should have easily wiped out those pesky f4u-4 and f4u-5ns.  Not to mention those out of date p51 Ds AND Ks ?




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Offline Debonair

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« Reply #98 on: September 29, 2005, 07:17:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun
....On the other hand, aircraft that didn't make it to the front, whether Axis or Allies, were invariably late for a reason. The P-80 for example was sent to Europe, where one example crashed and burned, leading to the type being grounded. It was not even fit for demonstration flights at that point, and the type wasn't cleared for operational use until long after VE day (maybe even after VJ day)...


Thought you might be interested in a slightly more accurate version of the history of the P-80 in Europe, which I guess you'd never seen.  Although I'd bet this has been in this forum at least a dozen times by now, so sorry for the rehash

"...four YP-80As were deployed to Europe in order to demonstrate their capabilities to combat crews and to help in the development of tactics to be used against Luftwaffe jet fighters. YP-80As 44-83026 and 44-83027 were shipped to England in mid-December 1944, but 44-83026 crashed on its second flight at Burtonwood, England, killing its pilot, Major Frederick Borsodi. 44-83027 was modified by Rolls-Royce to flight test the B-41, the prototype of the Nene turbojet. On November 14, 1945, it was destroyed in a crash landing after an engine failure. 44-83028 and 44-83029 were shipped to the Mediterranean. They actually flew some operational sorties, but they never encountered any enemy aircraft. Both of them fortunately managed to survive their tour of duty in Europe, but one of them crashed on August 2, 1945 after returning to the USA. The other one ended its useful life as a pilotless drone..."

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p80_12.html

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #99 on: September 29, 2005, 07:39:09 PM »
So, of four deployed YP-80s, three of them met their ultimate demise due to crashing?

 75% casualty rate due to accidents alone.

 Wow! Doesn't sound all that battle-ready to me.

Offline Debonair

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« Reply #100 on: September 29, 2005, 08:57:56 PM »
That wasn't my point, i was just correcting a slight inaccuracy.  I'm sure the pilotless drone didn't fare very well either

Offline Rafe35

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« Reply #101 on: September 29, 2005, 10:05:58 PM »
F4UDOA

What about Goodyear F2G Super Corsair then?

What about F4U-4 shooting down a MiG-15 during Korean Conflict?
Rafe35
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Offline humble

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« Reply #102 on: September 29, 2005, 10:58:46 PM »
It was not a Mustang, but to translate that defect into "outdated in 1934" is rather silly, especially as the Luftwaffe didn't need a Mustang.

I'd disagree completely, every nation "needed" a mustang. By that I mean a flexible platform that combined range, performance and multimission capability. Had the germans possessed a plane with any similiar capability in 1942 (when the mustang originally entered service) or a plane similiar to the -1 hog which 1st flew May 29, 1940 and entered service in June 1942 the war would have proceeded completely differently. The lack of a "strike fighter" crippled the luftwaffe thru out the conflict. On the otherside the US had 4 distinct generations of such aircraft on the USAAF side alone (the P-39, P38, P-47 and P-51). All of them combined a reasonable air to air capability along with significant range and ground attack capability. The germans lack of vision in this regard is probably the single greatest reason they lost the war.

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Offline straffo

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« Reply #103 on: September 29, 2005, 11:41:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by OttoJ

The 109 is the most prolific and successful fighter in history.


You have to define this precisely.
Personally I don't think the 109 was sucessful at all,didn't the German lost the war ?

Offline leitwolf

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« Reply #104 on: September 29, 2005, 11:44:02 PM »
The single greatest reason why Germany lost was the attack on the Soviet Union.
veni, vidi, vulchi.