Fuel situation of Axis units in the west, April 1945

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by butch2k
There is something i have to verify pertaining to this document, as i have another one stating that DC/ASC are to be delivered at 1.80ata boost contrary to previous orders but i'm not sure if it was published before of after 191/345.

AFAIK those doc is from early march state that only in the Kassel DB plant should the DC/ASC engines be delivered at 1,8 ata, and there were quite a few other DB factories. Considering there were ca 4200 K-4/G10 built, it would mean at least 6-7000 or more 605D engines produced. I doubt a single factory could manage that.

In any case, both would be superseeded by the OKLs orders from 21st MArch to set engines to 1,98ata. Regardless of the factory setting, setting the DC engine to 1,98ata was a matter of seconds by adjusting the boost regulator.

BTW I wonder why Milo missed the fact on butch board that if half the 109s would rely on B4, and the other half and all 190s would rely on C3, with 1 sortie per each day with 50% of the aircraft particating, even the airfield supplies would last long enough until the end of war... appreantly he also missed the part these supplies refered only to the stocks at airfields, ie. distanced 100m from the parking planes and ready to be used up.
Supplies from the high command is another thing, but we know these planes flew till the very end of the war (ie. Hartman scorred his 352nd on 8th May 1945), and its a fact the Italian fuel stocks WERE replanished even in the end of April. Regardless the immidiate fuel supplies were aduquate anyway until the last days.

I think its beyond reasonable doubt that they used C3 fuel. Objections arent supported by ANY evidence at all, its more like guerilla fighting of a few desperates left.

[butch2k]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
AFAIK those doc is from early march state that only in the Kassel DB plant should the DC/ASC engines be delivered at 1,8 ata, and there were quite a few other DB factories. Considering there were ca 4200 K-4/G10 built, it would mean at least 6-7000 or more 605D engines produced. I doubt a single factory could manage that.
 

I don't think were are speaking of the same doc, mine is a T-Amt doc covering conversion from DB to DC and back stating that delivered DC are to be set back to 1.80ata.
Do you have the reference of yours at hand ?

[Wilbus]

Looks more like those two were born Akansas rednecks Squire...

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by butch2k
I don't think were are speaking of the same doc, mine is a T-Amt doc covering conversion from DB to DC and back stating that delivered DC are to be set back to 1.80ata.
Do you have the reference of yours at hand ?

Mine is Niederschrift Nr 6717 from mid-January and states the engines from Kassel are delivered at 1,8ata, which is not much info considering until finishing the operational trials with the test Gruppe, 1,98 was suspended at that time.

What is the date of yours and what does it say exactly?

But point again - correct me if I am wrong - the DC engine could be set to either 1,8 or 1,98ata in a matter of minutes, so I would guess they were set to 1,98ata at unit level if authorization was granted, ie. JG 27 and 53.

Correct?

[Knegel]

Hi,

"But point again - correct me if I am wrong - the DC engine could be set to either 1,8 or 1,98ata in a matter of minutes, so I would guess they were set to 1,98ata at unit level if authorization was granted, ie. JG 27 and 53."

This depends of the way they did deliver the engines. If they got the 'Grundeinstellung'(basic setting) 1.8ata, they had to adjust  the ignition and use other sparkplugs, next to the ata adjusting, but all this isnt a problem.
With Grundeinstellung 1.98ata but 1.8ata used, the engine had less power.

Actually there isnt a coherence between the DB605DC 1.8 or 1.98 and the fuelsituation.  DB605DC´s did need C3 fuel anyway.

On the other hand there is no reason to deliver DC engines, if they wasnt allowed to use 1.98ata, DB engines with C3 or B4 + MW50 did the same job. To deliver a engine, which dont bring a poweradvantage, but cant use B4 fuel, would be very strange!

Greetings, Knegel

[MiloMorai]

Knegel, I can help it he does not have the comprehension to see what I was illustrating. If I would have used the 'I' word, then that would be an attack. What I said is not considered an attack where I come from. I will believe Butch since he is not bigoted and biased to support an agenda. Do you think Kurfy would post such quotes which casts doubts on his theory?


No Kurfy, I did not miss Butch's 'WHAT IF' and that is what it was, a 'what if'. The Fw190A units would have priority on the irratic deliveries of C3 or are you going to have 190s sitting on the ground to supply a penny pocket of 109s? Butch even used a partial fuel load for the 190s and a full fuel load for the 109s, which will skew the numbers. He also did not include any drop tank use in his 'what if'.

The servicable 190s outnumbered the servicable 109s in the whole LW by a ratio of 5:4.

and its a fact the Italian fuel stocks WERE replanished even in the end of April.

Italian stock was replenished at the end of April? Not what your partial chart says.

B4: April 23 - 147,000l, May 1 - 0.0l
C3: April 23 - 116,000l, May 1 - 7000l

[Kurfürst]

Yep.

Regarding Grundeinstellung 1,98/1,8, I think its a bit theoretical. It would refer to the DC engine set to 1,98ata, but when no MW 50 was used, only fuel. The only scenario I can think of is the 109Ks ability to use the MW tank as fuel tank, when of course MW50 could be carried/used. Or perhaps brand-new engines that were not yet run-in (5 hours), and were not advised to use MW boost yet.

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
Italian stock was replenished at the end of April? Not what your partial chart says.

B4: April 23 - 147,000l, May 1 - 0.0l
C3: April 23 - 116,000l, May 1 - 7000l

Bold text hardly makes your claims more credible, Milo.

Regarding the claims that B-4 run out, I wonder how you made up that. Certainly not from the chart I posted, which doesnt give data for May 1 for B4 at all.

As for the replenisment, its quite clear

April 29:

B4 : 47 000 liter
C3 : 10 000 liter

April 30

B4 : 50 000 liter
C3 : 13 000 liter

Thats +6000 liters in total, and probalby some were also used up in the meantime.

[MiloMorai]

No data for B4 on May 1 = no fuel.

A measly 3000l of C3 delivered, which is enough for 5 190 sorties, is a far cry from the 100,000l you claim was delivered in Jan, Feb, March and April of 1945. Must have been the April delivery that finally arrived a month late.

[Angus]

So why did the LW use oxen to pull aircraft around the ramps?

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
No data for B4 on May 1 = no fuel.

Source?

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Angus
So why did the LW use oxen to pull aircraft around the ramps?

I am not familiar with any LW aircraft mover vehicle that would use aviation grade fuel, Angus...

[Kev367th]

Well the one thing I have learn't from all these THEORIES is that Butch seems to have the data to back up any statements he makes.

Kurfy - Be nice if just instead of repacking the same old set of whats ifs, we can assume etc, you actually came up with something NEW.
At least then maybe we can put this whole topic to rest.

You have a workable theory, thats all. No solid proof of any kind.

Where it falls short - using recent fuel shortage in US as a example -
My local gas station had premium (count that as ANR C3), by your theory all others in area should have it also.
They didn't, out of 5 gas stations it was the only one to have premium (C3), but they ALL had regular (B4).
As I said just an example to show the flaw in your logic.
Not saying C3 wasn't available in Germany, just using the recent gas shortages in the US as a parallel.

[butch2k]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
Source?

Actually there were still 10m3 of B4 on that date

[OttoJ]

I LOVE THIS THREAD! PLEASE DON'T STOP NOW!