Author Topic: Jet Blue flight about to make "soft landing" at LAX  (Read 1717 times)

Offline Hangtime

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Jet Blue flight about to make "soft landing" at LAX
« Reply #75 on: September 23, 2005, 09:42:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
Mentioned on the news this AM that there have been 7 A320's with the same issue over the past 10 years.


If it don't say 'Boeing', I just ain't going.
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Offline Fishu

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Jet Blue flight about to make "soft landing" at LAX
« Reply #76 on: September 23, 2005, 09:54:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
If it don't say 'Boeing', I just ain't going.


and theres a photo proof of B747 having similar problems in '98 and someone already mentioned C17.
Nobody checked out how many similar problems Boeing has had.

Offline Gunslinger

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Re: Fire most likely from a magnesium wheel
« Reply #77 on: September 23, 2005, 10:04:35 AM »
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Originally posted by hacksaw1
The fire from the video looks to me like it's most likely from a magnesium alloy wheel after the tire blew.  A pilot in the F-4 squadron I was with lost hydraulic power and was forced to use pneumatics to land. He missed the hook for the emergency arrest, and was applying pneumatics to brake the plane. But the right main wheel locked up, blew the tire and started trailing a magnesium flame. Tower told the pilot he was on fire. The plane was drifting off the runway. The pilot elected to eject, but the RIO had already unstrapped. Pilot was okay, RIO killed, plane stayed on the edge of the runway, the magnesium wheel ground down four or five inches.

Best regards,

Cement


Watch the video closely, the fire get's flamed when it goes over the centerline stripe.  Pretty interesting but yes the paint dosnt have to be flamable to burn like that.

Fishu I'd like to see these pictures can you post them?

Offline Fishu

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Re: Re: Fire most likely from a magnesium wheel
« Reply #78 on: September 23, 2005, 10:15:22 AM »
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Fishu I'd like to see these pictures can you post them?


erm.. in the first few replies.

Offline Gunslinger

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Re: Re: Re: Fire most likely from a magnesium wheel
« Reply #79 on: September 23, 2005, 10:18:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Fishu
erm.. in the first few replies.


Ahhh forgot that this was a multi page thread.  So one photo of a 747 is a design flaw and needs to be turned into a eurotard airbus Vrs. Boeing argument?

Offline Golfer

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Jet Blue flight about to make "soft landing" at LAX
« Reply #80 on: September 23, 2005, 10:24:30 AM »
I saw several replays of the video.  The flame does get more intense and it seems to correspond with the centerline stripes.  However as it gets slowed down, perhaps 2/3 into the time the nose wheel is on the ground the flame gets 'intense' and stays there until it no longer has fuel (particles from the wheel and intense heat from the friction) and the airplane stops.

You can see the fire staying intense toward the end of the roll and it didn't have any particular correlation to the runway stripes.  Could possibly the fire be intensified by additional pressure settling onto the nose wheel just like it would if you normally landed, because that's basically what this was despite the drama induced the television.  When you land an airplane with an oleo strut nose wheel you're going to have a little fluctuation in the long axis of the airplane and can feel the airplane rising slightly and falling much like the shocks on your car would going over a railroad track.  It seems like the airplane was just 'settling' all the way down and then when the weight stayed on the nose wheel, the fire stayed intense.

I personally don't think just the contact with a runway stripe is going to cause a fire or that we run the risk that it is 'flammable' like its been said a few times.  Its either the additional paint particles (just like grain silos explode from time to time) or the huge amount of weight varying on the nose wheel as the airplane settles that was causing the brief flares.

Offline Fishu

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Fire most likely from a magnesium wheel
« Reply #81 on: September 23, 2005, 10:26:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
Ahhh forgot that this was a multi page thread.  So one photo of a 747 is a design flaw and needs to be turned into a eurotard airbus Vrs. Boeing argument?


It wasn't meant to turn it into an eurotard argument, in fact it was to prevent the .. well, you used eurotard, so i guess i can say..  ameritard Boeing vs. Airbus argument.

I don't myself give a crap for whether it's Boeing or Airbus, I'd preferably see both doing well.

Offline Gunslinger

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Fire most likely from a magnesium wheel
« Reply #82 on: September 23, 2005, 10:45:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Fishu
It wasn't meant to turn it into an eurotard argument, in fact it was to prevent the .. well, you used eurotard, so i guess i can say..  ameritard Boeing vs. Airbus argument.

I don't myself give a crap for whether it's Boeing or Airbus, I'd preferably see both doing well.

:huh ;)

Offline hacksaw1

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Jet Blue flight about to make "soft landing" at LAX
« Reply #83 on: September 24, 2005, 12:09:22 PM »
Gunslinger, you are right. I saw a different feed of the landing and there definitely appears to be a correlation between the centerline stripe and the intensity of flame. I wouldn't know the cause, but my guess would be the increased abrasion of tiny reflective beads in the centerline paint increased the flame of the metal alloy of the wheel.

Quote
18 DEC 2004 Reflective beads damage airplane engines
Runway paint is being removed at Seattle-Boeing Field Airport because of tiny abrasive, reflective beads in the paint. Since the taxiways were striped earlier this month, the beads from the paint are blamed for causing excessive wear on engines. The wear was found during inspections and several had to be replaced. (AP)


Best Regards.

Cement

Offline Fishu

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Jet Blue flight about to make "soft landing" at LAX
« Reply #84 on: September 24, 2005, 04:58:02 PM »
I'd say that would lead into removing the beads from other airports as well.

Offline Dago

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Jet Blue flight about to make "soft landing" at LAX
« Reply #85 on: September 24, 2005, 07:49:27 PM »
My comments on some of the issues and questions in this thread.

1) Cant retract the landing gear with the nose wheel turned.  Wouldnt fit in the wheel well, and the Brake Steering Computer wouldnt allow retraction on an Airbus with the nose gear turned.

Landing even with just them main gear would be preferable in my opinion as you would still be able to steer with differantial braking, and you would also retain braking to stop the aircraft.  One the belly you arent much more than along for the ride and just hope it stays on, and stops on the runway.

2) Yes, the wheels and axles will throw out a tremendous amount of sparks while being ground down.

3) The steering bypass pin would have had to have been removed prior to takeoff or they couldnt have steered the aircraft to the runway for takeoff.  Airbus aircraft do have nosewheel steering bypass.

4) Very doubtful that Airbus made the landing gear, most gear are produced by one or two companies and sold to aircraft manufacturers.  Dowty Rotol being by far the most common that I know of.  (757 and B2 Bomber share the same nose gear)

5) The ability to dump fuel, as pointed out only exists on a limited number aircraft designs, typically widebody aircraft, that have a large disparity between max allowable takeoff weight and max allowable landing weight.  B747 has it, I think the DC10 does, but I cant remember a narrowbody with it.

Only a few reasons come to mind that I think would have caused that nosewheel problem.  

1) Steering system computer failure
2) Broken scizzors link.
3) Weird hydraulic anamoly.

The only real thing we can do is wait for the results of the investigation.

dago
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

Offline Debonair

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Jet Blue flight about to make "soft landing" at LAX
« Reply #86 on: September 28, 2005, 03:58:52 PM »
Here are the preliminary results of the investigation
http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20050927X01540&key=1

Offline xrtoronto

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Jet Blue flight about to make "soft landing" at LAX
« Reply #87 on: September 28, 2005, 06:53:44 PM »
here's a closer look at the damage to the landing gear:








Offline Curval

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Jet Blue flight about to make "soft landing" at LAX
« Reply #88 on: September 28, 2005, 06:55:52 PM »
If it isn't Air Bus I'm gonna make a big fuss.
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain