3cm MK103/38 Flakzwilling auf Panzer IV

[usuqa_mdiq]

hey what about something like this??

[Krusty]

knowing the ballistics of the 30mm (and how bad they suck) the current osty is far far better.

The funny thing is, that the 30mm in real life was supposed to be super long range, able to hit bombers outside of their defensive guns range. Oh well.

[Oleg]

Originally posted by Krusty
knowing the ballistics of the 30mm (and how bad they suck) the current osty is far far better.

MK108 and MK103 are very different guns. 109/110s armed by MK108.

Originally posted by Krusty
The funny thing is, that the 30mm in real life was supposed to be super long range, able to hit bombers outside of their defensive guns range. Oh well.

Looks like you know nothing about you said. MK108 has effective range 100m approximately. MK108 advantage over 20mm guns was power not range.

[Krusty]

I doubt they'd make any weapon anywhere for any purpose that had an effective range of ONLY 100 meters. Prove that before I even attempt to belive it

Also I've heard reports of bomber crews sitting there helplessly as they were behing hit by cannon fire frim outside their own guns range by attacking planes.

[Oleg]

Did you even saw MK108's pics and characteristics? Short barrel, low muzzle velocity cannon with terrible ballistics - that is it.

I cannt remember where i saw 100m number now, but read this at least:

Because the fight against heavy allied bombers required a 30mm cannon, the lighter MK 108 was developed, with a much lower ballistic performance, but less than half the weight and bulk. Fighters could carry two or even four MK 108s. This gun had a heavy punch, but because it was a short-range weapon fighter pilots had to get really close to their targets. Its use required strong nerves and better training than German pilots received during these last years of the war.    

http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/fgun.html , "Heavier Cannon" section. You can see guns characteristics there as well.

[hubsonfire]

Okay, fantastic, the 108 only hits up close. We know this. What about the 103 that's on that tank chassis?

[Oleg]

Originally posted by hubsonfire
Okay, fantastic, the 108 only hits up close. We know this. What about the 103 that's on that tank chassis?

I dont know anything about it.

Originally posted by Krusty
Also I've heard reports of bomber crews sitting there helplessly as they were behing hit by cannon fire frim outside their own guns range by attacking planes.

There are others heavy cannons with really long range, Bordkanone BK 3.7 for example. It was used in 110G2 agains allied bombers and even had telescopic (or optical?) sight for long range shots.
(in fact, MK103 never widely used as air-to-air weapon, even though it good range and ballistics)

[Lye-El]

the twin gun 3 cm zwillingsflak 103/38 was used, which had also been fitted to such planes as the Henschel Hs 129 and Dornier Do 335.

The Kugelblitz had the chassis and basic superstructure of the Panzer IV tank, on which a newly designed turret was mounted. This turret was fully enclosed, with overhead protection and could turn 360 degrees.

The armament consisted of the twin gun 3 cm zwillingsflak 103/38, which could fire 450 rounds a minute.
[edit]

In service

The Kugelblitz was not yet out of development when the war ended. Several evaluation vehicles had been built, but it is unclear how many. It is also unclear what happened to the few Kugelblitz which were built; some sources say that they ended up being used in the battle for Berlin.

[Wilbus]

The Mk103 had much higher velocity, it was used on some planes (such a Hs 129 for tank killing). Velocity of the shells were about 870 meters/sec (2854 feet/sec).

So that is one high velocity, would be easier to hit then with the current Osti, about 450 rpm and 2 guns would make 900 rpm total.

The weapon weighted almost three times as much as the Mk 108 though which is why it wasn't used on fighters much.

As for effective range of the Mk108 being 100 meters I wouldn't agree. It was probarly a few hundred meters further out but take into account that most pilots (specially many LW aces) prefered to fire bellow 100 meters, even with 20mm and MG's they would most likely have wanted to get in equally close with the 30mm due to the extreem drop of the shell. But effective killing power (if hit) would probarly be a bit further out.
The velocity is low but not THAT low, it is above 600 meters/sec.

Not 100% sure about this velocity but I know it was high, maybe Tony Williams can step in with more exact number/confirm this one.

[Krusty]

Isn't the 262 supposed to have 2x 103 and 2x 108? If so is this ballistics modeled properly in AH?

[Wilbus]

262 had 4x20mm Mk 108's.

Mk 103's would be too heavy. Fighter-Bomber verision (A2) usually had a pair of 30's removed.

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Wilbus
262 had 4x20mm Mk 108's.

You mean 30mm.

Hah!  Revenge!!!!!

[Oleg]

Originally posted by Wilbus
The velocity is low but not THAT low, it is above 600 meters/sec.

I post link above, it say 505 m/s. Same others sources say 540 m/s and 560 m/s even, but never close to 600.

Dont forget about short barrel (whole gun length is 1 meter, for comparation, MK-103 has 2.5m length).

[GRUNHERZ]

Just fyi there were 262 with 6 cannon.

2 mg151/20
2 mk108 30mm
2 mk103 30mm



Oh mk108 is a much better a2a cannon than 103, weighs much less has 30% greater rof and the balistics arent really that bad considering the normally short engagement ranges of ww2.

As for aaa that kugelblitz with 2 mk103 would have been a monster .

[Oleg]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Oh mk108 is a much better a2a cannon than 103, weighs much less has 30% greater rof and the balistics arent really that bad considering the normally short engagement ranges of ww2.

Then, why MK-103 was used in late war in some 109K-4 instead of "much better MK-108"?