Stalled without stall limiter

[Simaril]

After over a year of "learn by doing" without much progress, I had a great training session -- where I learned that the stall limiter is a major fight limiter. For the last week I've been flying without it.

I do fine in the MA, but in the low speed angles environment of the DA I'm having major problems. I know some of the adjustment will just come with practice, but since I dont "learn by doing" as quickly as I "learn by hearing" I'd appreciate a couple pointers.

1) I hear the difference between the stall horn and buffeting; but I dont know their exact realtionship. Is buffet the next step past the stall warning? Do elevators and airelons have the same effect on buffet, or is one more dangerous than the other? Should I try to keep completely away from buffet, or do yuo ride that too?

2) With the llimiter on, I got pretty comfortable using 1/4 rolls in the middle of a tight loop to redirect or gain angles. When I try that now, especially on the slower (downward) arm, I almost always lose control. Am I just too close to the edge, or doing a bad thing altogether?


I've been maneuvering alone, trying to find the envelope, but that doesnt seem to translate into imporvement as yet.  It's pretty discouraging right now, and I'm dying almost every turn fight I try. I'm either being aggressive and augering, or I'm keeping safely on "my" edge and losing fights I know I should be able to win.


Any general stall limiter tips you may have would be GREATLY appreciated. I know practice will be part of it, but I think I learn better with explanations -- so thanks in advance!

[Schatzi]

I cant tell you much on the difference between stall limiter on or off, cause i never used it.

But i think that aileron input is more 'hurting' the airflow than elv, ie stalls you out more easily. With those rolls you dont do a bad thing, its just might be a little on the wrong side of the edge.

And another thing on stalls: learn not to fear them, but use them. Always depending on which plane youre flying of course. In Hurri for example i often use a quick stallout on top of loop to reverse faster, kind of letting the nose fall down.


What you could do to 'loose fear' of stalling out is grab a Spit or Hurricane and stall them deliberatly. Then try to recover. Then try to get the time from stallout to recovery as short as possible. Kind of loosing control 'on purpose' when you want to. (Like in a snap roll)


And dont get frustrated. DA is a hard place to be. I get shot down there continuously as well, even though i *know* i should be able to at least put up a fight. And maybe get in touch with one of the official or unofficial trainers for some fine tuning.


Good luck. >S<.

[SuperDud]

Practice practice practice.... It'll come together Sim. Just stick with it. It's more of just developing a "feel". I don't really pay much attention to stall horns and such. I can just tell if the planes gonna let me do something or if it's not. When I started learning without stall limiter it was ugly. But over time it got easier.

Best advice I can give is to do the move you want with plenty of E and real loose. Then tighten it down and use less E. Rinse and repeat. Nothing will make it easier and theres no magic formula. Simply, repetition will make it easier and it'll take time.

[Krusty]

Once you're comfortable, you can do fun things... I was in a 109G6 with gondolas and had a P51D (3 of them, actually) fighting me. The p51D was going past over my head and I was not in a position to get a shot... until I yanked up real hard on the stick, mushed forward, fired a burst of 3x20mm (target was under my nose but I timed it right) and ripped his wing off. Took me a second to recover from the stall but I got the kill and kept flying afterwards. It was almost a 90-degree belly shot from below. Stall limiter would never have let me get that shot.

[Simaril]

Thanks for the advice and encouragement.

I have been getting some help from trainers, and I think I've found one whose style matches up very well with mine -- but I'm "stalled" until I learn to maneuver with the limiter off.  I'm learning to pay attention to the mushyness and response, so I guess I'm getting there.

In the DA, I fly the spit V almost exclusively -- and I'm pretty comfortable with stalls and recovery. I just dont want to do it without meaning to....

[Murdr]

Originally posted by Simaril
1) I hear the difference between the stall horn and buffeting; but I dont know their exact realtionship. Is buffet the next step past the stall warning? Do elevators and airelons have the same effect on buffet, or is one more dangerous than the other? Should I try to keep completely away from buffet, or do yuo ride that too?
 

Well there is the power on stall, which is where your speed is too low to produce the lift you need for controled flight.  That is the condition that the stall horn is warning about.  

Another condition is an accelerated stall.  That is where you initially have the needed airspeed and lift for your plane under normal conditions, but you are overloading that lift with your maneuvers.  In other words, when you produce G's, your plane is in effect heavier, and requires more lift than normal.  This condition is prone to cause buffeting.

Lowering your angle of attack (elevators) in either condition is the way to alieviate problems.  If you are not wings level, lowing your bank angle will also help.

One thing to keep in mind under near stall conditions, is that the forces that keep your plane stable under normal conditions are weakening.  Making abrupt rudder or aeliron input, can send you over the edge quickly.  Often this can be a function of having one wing stall before the other.  This is what causes a 'snap out' or the enterance to a spin.  You can mix inputs while riding the edge, but it takes some experience to learn how much you can get away with.