snow tires - 2 or 4??

[MrRiplEy[H]]

JAB thats why cars are equiped with ESP/ASR.

You can floor it on ice and it won't slide.

[63tb]

First, thanks for the replies.


Second, I don't think we have anything near the conditions you Finns deal with.
The biggest reason for snow tires around here is commuting. That means you are constantly moving from a dead stop on marbles. Driving on new or packed snow is a cinch. It's that semi frozen slush that whitens your knuckles.
So if I understood correctly the problem with just having the snow tires in the front is during manuevers or braking the back end could come around on you?
I was looking at the WS50's but I also saw good reviews on the Dunlop Winter Sport M3. Any experience with those?

Third, my wife's a great driver, so piss off.


63tb

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Having 50% winter tires is a 100% killer combination. It's so dangerous that it's forbidden by law here.

I know I've slid sideways in a split second from a groove in a road after having to replace _one_ rear winter tyre with a spare (summer) tyre.

Having two summer tyres in the back is like playing russian roulette. Do not do it. Even 4 summer tyres beat halfluff'n half any day.

I'd go for 100% winter tyres - I like driving around in one piece.

[Fishu]

Originally posted by 63tb
Second, I don't think we have anything near the conditions you Finns deal with.  

Don't underestimate the road conditions.

During my stay in the NY state I saw several fresh accidents in a single hour due to a very thin layer of snow.
In fact more fresh accidents than I had seen in my life until that day.
Also heard a person get delayed due to a head on crash blocking a road...

Head on crashes.. a perfect example of the situation when all your driving skills becomes totally irrelevant and the opposing drivers skills becomes the major cause.

[nirvana]

Like Hangtime said, You're steering, braking traction etc. are all effected.  Guess what?  4 wheel drive helps you accelerate but doesn't help you stop.  All 4 wheels have brakes, all 4 tires need snow tires.

[eagl]

lazersailer,

You have a good point but you carry it too far.  Tires can be just as important as driver skill, depending on the particular tire and vehicle.

My firebird handles very well in the snow if I'm on all-season tires, it handled passibly ok on the last set of summer tires I had, but on the current set of summer tires, the car is downright dangerous in the snow.  It's like driving on slicks.  The last time I drove it on packed snow, even with traction control on when I pulled forward from a dead stop on the freeway, the car just started very slowly rotating instead of moving forward.  Before you say I lifted the clutch too fast, I didn't.  The car was moving slow enough I could have gotten out to push the car back into line, and gotten back in.  With decent tires, the car would have just moved forward with a minimum of wheelspin but on the current extreme summer tires, I may as well be using my race slicks.

It's a shame, because these tires are otherwise the best tires I've ever had on the car.  They're awesome in the rain and very grippy and predictable when it's dry.  But the tread is 100% continuous angled strips instead of blocks, and that means there is zero snow traction whatsoever.  There is no benefit in being a good driver in the snow with these tires because it's not possible to apply ANY power to the wheels without the car just slowly rotating sideways.

As it was, I ended up with the rear wheels on the left side of the road crown, the fronts on the right side of the crown, the wheel turned full left, traction control off, and I just "drifted" that way below walking speed until I got to a patch of road that had been gravelled, at which point the car immediately became controllable again.  But for a while I thought I was going to get stuck blocking 2 lanes of traffic...  Embarassing.  I would have done better taking one rear tire off and mounting the spare just to get off the road, but the storm sprung up while I was driving and dumped about 2 inches in under half an hour, so there wasn't even the option of not driving that morning.  UK roads don't typically have usable shoulders (they have little parking areas every couple of miles instead) and the few cars that spun off the road or decided to pull off remained halfway out into the traffic lanes causing an even greater hazard.

[ramzey]

Originally posted by 63tb
Folks,

I want to get snow tires for my car (PT Cruiser) and my wife's van (Mazda MPV). We live in NJ, so you never can tell how the winter will go. Some years it's not bad but if a nor'easter comes in we can get hammered (like last year). With the way the weather has been going, (we just had 10 inches of rain), I wouldn't be surprised if this winter is rough.

Anyway, several local tire places I've called, and the Internet tire store "Tire-Rack", all say that I should get 4 snow tires on the cars. Why?

I remember back when almost all cars were rear-wheel drive and everyone just put 2 snow tires on the back.

Now both our cars are front wheel drive. Why wouldn't 2 snow tires on the front wheels be sufficient?

Are these guys just trying to sell more tires, or is there a reason to put snow tires on the rear wheels as well?

thanks

63tb

Install 4 or dont bother

Couple years ago i drive citroen with 4 winter tires whole winter,
in the middle of april i decide to change them to summer tires but due lack of storage space  i change only 2 rear tires.
Couple days later we got snow days again and i could feel diference ( 3 spins on highway that day) Whole winter i never even had danger situation with 4 snow tires. With 2 i allmost crash my car on icy road.
So change 4 of them, just for safety

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
Please, snow tires aren't vital to control in snow.  

Experience is 20x more vital than any tire.

One of the first things my parents did when teaching me how to drive was to take my to a snow covered parking lot and make me perform standard things a little faster than I normally would have.

Snow means nothing to me.

LMFAO.  My Rally School instructor would just love to eat your a** alive in a Winter Course!      BTW, teamoneil is the school before anyone asks.

Karaya

PS - Experience means diddily squat when you have the wrong tires for the conditions.  The more you do it, the more you increase the likehood of an accident due to "cockiness".

[Staga]

Originally posted by 63tb
First, thanks for the replies.


Second, I don't think we have anything near the conditions you Finns deal with.
The biggest reason for snow tires around here is commuting. That means you are constantly moving from a dead stop on marbles. Driving on new or packed snow is a cinch. It's that semi frozen slush that whitens your knuckles.
So if I understood correctly the problem with just having the snow tires in the front is during manuevers or braking the back end could come around on you?
I was looking at the WS50's but I also saw good reviews on the Dunlop Winter Sport M3. Any experience with those?

Third, my wife's a great driver, so piss off.


63tb

You're right; with worse tires in rear all you have to do in even gentle turn is raise your foot from the throttle and you may find yourself having a nice, long slide. It's nice way to drive when you intentionally make it happen but bad thing is it happens also when you want to hold the car steady... been there and done that and I hope it'll never happen again.

If the slush is your most problematic type of snow then you don't want Bridgestone Blizzaks; they were rather good tires 10 years ago, mediocre at 5 years ago and now they're just crap.
No idea about Dunlops. When selecting wintertires think about the conditions you'll usually have; some wintertires are made for central European winters with usually just wet tarmac and sometimes a bit slushy when others are developed for northern European winters with plenty of ice and snow. Problem is manufactureres won't tell for what conditions their tires are made and that's why "Tekniikan Maailma" (World of technic) makes test on different roads, tracks and conditions with professional test drivers. Tests are also done both with and without different antiskid and ABS systems.

I'd pick either Nokian or Gislaved (or maybe Continental); all are good in every kind of weather and safe to drive even in thick snow and/or icy road.

[eagl]

I was happy on my goodyear GSCs that came on the car.  The car handled very predictably on dry/wet pavement and also handled quite well in the snow, but they're merely "all season", not specifically snow tires.  They also hardened after a few years of driving so although they still had enough tread to be safe in the rain and on snow, their dry performance faded after 30k miles.  Of course, 30k miles is great tire life on a trans-am so don't take that as a complaint...

[Staga]

Every tire's rubber gets harder when tire gets old (in 3-4 years even if stored in cool and dark) and because of that tire loses its best grip. Most notable in turns where car begins to understeer and while accelerating or braking.
My wintertires (Nokians of course...) are having plenty of tread but I'm not sure if I should buy new ones and sell old ones to some fool...

[Masherbrum]

I had Nokian Hakkapelitta's on my 2002 Explorer.   I'll never buy another winter tire for any future vehicle.  The only exception would be BFGoodrich All-Terrains for my current Exlporer.

The Nokian Hakkapelitta's grip around corners in light ice conditions to 2 foot plowed snow were unequalled.  The treads are VERY self-cleaning, in the realm of the BFGoodrich Mud Terrains I had on my 1996 F-150 4x4.

I'd recommend the Nokian Hakkapelitta's.

Karaya

[Ripsnort]

Without a question, 4.

[lasersailor184]

I would never race in snow, there's no need for it.  However, I have no problem handling in snow at decent speeds.

[63tb]

Thanks again to all.

I'm going to check into the Nokians. I see they list a "Q", a "C2", and an "RSI". Do you know what the differences are?


Oh, and you convinced me to get 4.


63tb