Spit XVI and G-14

[ahgod69]

Originally posted by straffo
Disagree AHgod he didn't even mention trajectory, he spoke about "1-ping nook"

Not that I'm unaware of the special trajectory of the german 30 mm

Yup, you're right on that one my bad lol.  But I swear the hizookas are freakin lazer beams.  I have noticed the 30mm taking 2 hits to kill a fighter though.  Hizookas, if I ever got a 1 hit wonder ping it was a freak of nature and would be impossible to re-create, well at least until the next time I upped a sissyfire  

But seriouslyl, I haven't seen one of those 1 hit wonders in a long time.

[justin_g]

Originally posted by Hap
I'm not familiar with the variants.  My question is what might be their flying characteristics compared to the planes we know.

Here's a graph I made up for another thread, that should answer the question of comparative speeds of the new Spitfire XVI and Bf 109G-14.
(The LIGHT GREEN line would be representative of a Spitfire LF.XVI, and the RED for the G-14)

[Wilbus]

Originally posted by Bruno
The only 2 Geshwaders in France, Belgium were JG2 and JG26, both were 190 Geschwaders. (well 1 gruppe of each remained in 109s).

Thus my statement:



Is accurate.

The increase boost on the Spit V to 16 lbs was directly related to the 190. So was the introduction of the Spit IX, so was the LF and CW versions.

In BoB the main RAF fighter was the Hurricane. Same with Kanalkampf. For Rodeos and Circus' the 190 was being deployed.

In NA early on the main RAF fighters were P-40 variants. As more Spit 5s were sent to NA the LW sent 190s. See JG2 in NA

No one said the Spitfires never fought 109s but their main opponent was the 190.

That whole statement depends entirely on WHEN.

Yes the Brittish "rushed" the higher boost V and the new IX to counter 190's and they clipped the wings for improved roll rate.

Pretty much all versions after those were just normal development versions like any other plane from any other country.

190's didn't exist during BoB, not sure why you included that in the same sentence.

Your statement is true between 1941-43 untill the Germans finally moved more squadrons back to the west.
Not trying to piss you off but I just don't agree with your statement that the spits fought the 190's most of the time.

It doesn't specify when.

It is right to say though that the development of the Spits, atleast during 1941/42 was directly aimed at countering the 190.

[Bruno]

Yes the Brittish "rushed" the higher boost V and the new IX to counter 190's and they clipped the wings for improved roll rate.

They did more then that. The built LF.Vc (even clipped wings), LF.IXs and many other in response to the 190.

190's didn't exist during BoB, not sure why you included that in the same sentence.

Because 109s did... During BoB / Blitz and Kanalkampf the most numerous RAF fighter was the Hurricane. After that the most numerous LW fighter in range of  Spitfires were 190s and remained so until after D-Day. This goes to my point that the Spitfires main adversary was the 190.

Your statement is true between 1941-43 untill the Germans finally moved more squadrons back to the west.
Not trying to piss you off but I just don't agree with your statement that the spits fought the 190's most of the time.

My statement is true whatever the date. The only 2 Geschwaders in NWE were JG 26 and JG2 until mid 44 (after D-day). They flew 190s (1 gruppe of each stayed in 109s), Spitfires fire didn't have range to reach Germany. There was only 1 Geschwader flying defense of the reich until mid '43. Other squadrons we moved to RVT help battle the Ami bombers not Spitfires.

Spits fought 190s most of the time.

It is right to say though that the development of the Spits, atleast during 1941/42 was directly aimed at countering the 190.

It is right to say that for any date. LF.IXs didn't enter squadron service until '43.

The largest RAF / Spitfire air battle was over Dieppi. 190s of JG26 and JG2 kicked Spitfire arse:

Focke-Wulf 190s Over Dieppe

You won't piss me off by disagreeing, especially because I am right. I hold no animosity for those who are 'wrong'...

[Angus]

If you look into confirmed kills of the RAF on a long period after the introduction of the 190 it's mostly 190's. So Bruno has a good point here.

[Karnak]

The Hurricane may have been the most numerous for a time after the BoB, but the Spitfire had replaced it as the main RAF fighter relatively quickly following the BoB.  You have to look at use in addition to numbers to see what is considered the main, frontline units.  Even in the BoB the Spitfire was very significant, just considerably less so than the Hurricane.  It is not right to dismiss it as a footnote to the BoB like the Defiant or Whirlwind.

[Bruno]

It is not right to dismiss it as a footnote to the BoB like the Defiant or Whirlwind.

Please quote where anyone said that...

[Karnak]

You didn't and I didn't mean the phrase in that way.  I thought about clarifying, but the phone rang and I am at work.  I was adding that for people who might be less familiar with the subject matter as there are some who read the boards.

[Wilbus]

Rgr you're probarly right.

[Bruno]

Originally posted by Karnak
You didn't and I didn't mean the phrase in that way.  I thought about clarifying, but the phone rang and I am at work.  I was adding that for people who might be less familiar with the subject matter as there are some who read the boards.

NP..

I had hoped I wasn't giving the impression that the Spitfire was equa, in terms of contributing to the RAF victory in BoB, to  the 'Defiant or Whirlwind'. I just wasn't sure after reading your reply...

FYI..

Did you see the picture I posted of a clipped-wing Seafire on the XVI thread in the Gen Discussion section?

Rgr you're probarly right.

Wil,

The only reason I am sure of what I posted is because I have researched this stuff for things in AH like events, CT, scenarios and currently for ToD.

I also do quite a bit for campaigns and coops for Il2/FB/AEP/PF.

fyi to all...

One thing about the G-14 (non AS) was that it saw more use in the east where as the G-6/AS and G-14/AS were needed more in the west. If you look at Justin's chart the G-14/AS, due to its supercharger, isn't quite as fast as the G-14 at lower altitude. However, it has a higher FTH where it faired better against the higher altitude Ami-fighters.

Since within the AH main every plane is a possible match-up, as Karnak said its fair compare any aircraft to each other (202 vs 262 if you want). Keeping history in mind I just wanted to point out that the Spit vs 190 and G-14 /  Yak / La / P-39 etc... would be appropriate.

[Angus]

A note on Justin's chart.
The Spit IX LF JL 165 is AFAIK the slowest one with those boost settings on the lists of spitfireperformance.com

Have a look

[Squire]

The Spits main adversary was the Fw190 in NW Europe, up untill D-Day, after that it met many 109s and other combat types, as the 2TAF went to France, and the LW reinforced the West Front.

In the MED, mainly Bf109s and other combat types, Malta 1942 being the most famous campaign.

As for the BoB, the Spit was the "junior partner", perhaps thats a better way of describing it? It was important, because it made up 40 percent of the RAF force, if for nothing else. I think it made a larger contribution to the RAF than the Bf 110 did for the LW anyways (in 1940), but yes, the Hurricane was the most important RAF fighter into early 1941. After October 1940, the RAF could re equip Sqns, not just replace combat losses. Thats when the real conversion started in earnest, and the Hurricane IIs were relegated to more fighter-bomber duties.

If your talking 44-45, the Spit is the standard, with the Mustang and Tempest being the junior partners, and the Typhoon filling a seperate fighter-bomber role , but with some help from  other types and Mosquito filling in niche roles such as Night Intruder, and other assorted roles.

Im going to add something here, because I think its relevent if your talking about "main types" ect, and has a bearing on many posts I have seen over the years regarding the RAF in late 1943-45.

The RCAFs 126 Wing, was formed in July 1943 with 3 Sqns of Spits. Thats the same time as many USAAF FGs were forming in Britain. If you look at its combat record, of the 15 8th AF FGs that fought in ETO 43-45 (3 Sqns each), 126 Wing is ranked as #6, if it was a USAAF unit. Scoring higher than 10 of the 15, with 361 kills (it lost 131 Spits and 98 pilots to all causes). It destroyed many other targets such as locomotives, transport, troop positions ect...

So thats an interesting bit of info when you see posts trying to diminsh the RAF/RCAFs role when comparing it to the 8th AF and the P-51 which has had more TV shows, books and movies about it.  

Im not in any way diminishing what the 8th AF did, at all,  but it annoys me when some are somewhat dismissive about 2TAF when they know almost knothing about it.  Not in this thread, just a general comment.

Not a troll, but its just something that us modest Canadians have to say once in awhile.

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Squire
The RCAFs 126 Wing, was formed in July 1943 with 3 Sqns of Spits. Thats the same time as many USAAF FGs were forming in Britain. If you look at its combat record, of the 15 8th AF FGs that fought in ETO 43-45 (3 Sqns each), 126 Wing is ranked as #6, if it was a USAAF unit. Scoring higher than 10 of the 15, with 361 kills (it lost 131 Spits and 98 pilots to all causes). It destroyed many other targets such as locomotives, transport, troop positions ect...

Yes, you see that a lot.  I have seen numerous claims on this board that the P-47 is what destroyed the Luftwaffe and then the P-51 came to get the glory.

It is much more complicated than that.  The P-47 was very important to breaking the Luftwaffe, but it did not do it alone and it was not the only important fighter involved in breaking the Luftwaffe.  Further it is an endless debate as to how broken the Luftwaffe ever was.

[Squire]

Well, because we now have the IXe/XVIe and it was the RAF/RCAFs main ride, I felt it was a timely reminder to counter all the "the Spit didnt do much after BoB" stuff you see from those with 1000 books on the B-17.