China vs. Cuba

[Boroda]

Flashpan, it's not propaganda, it's sad truth. Ever heard about Palomares? Hehe, missiles   Khruschev made Americans wet their pants after the first sattelite and a 65-megaton bomb test.

Rip, Cuban cigars are too special for me to smoke, and I doubt that they changed since 1980. But we had mostly cheap ones. Cuban cigarettes (Ligeros, Partagas, Monte-Cristo) were great, black tobacco, super-strong, even stronger then French brands like Gitanes or "thick" Galuases  

USSR NEVER armed Cuba with nukes. It placed it's own SOVIET missiles at Cuba. Just like US never armed Turkey with nuclear missiles.

Ripsnort, you are not right about socialism and communism. Don't mix communist party regin and communist social-economical formation.


------------------
With respect,
    Pavel Pavlov,
    Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS

[Ripsnort]

Boroda,
Partagas and Monte Cristo is 'Cuban-seed' , we get them here in America as well.  A bad cigar is one that never gets smoked...smoke your cubans, I will enjoy the Artero Fuentes I keep stocked.  

My comment about communism was a correction to Flash's statement, he said socialism, I corrected him and said "Commmunism"...and also noted you had no comment on your 'Freedom of the internet' you have now after the walls have fallen.  

[Flashpan]

 

Origianly posted by Ripsnort
Correction, Flash, that COMMUNISIM, not SOCIALISM.[/b/]

 Thanks Ripsnort, I stand corrected. The fingers were moving faster then the brain (seems to happen as you get older

 

Origianlly posted by Boroda
Flashpan, it's not propaganda, it's sad truth. Ever heard about Palomares? Hehe, missiles  Khruschev made Americans wet
                 their pants after the first sattelite and a 65-megaton bomb test.

 Yes I am familiar with it. I was a cold war soldier with a high security clearance.
 Little the soviets had that actually worried us. The poor quality of most of there systems made them ineffective. What worried us the most was the sheer volume of weapons that you had.
 If a full nuclear exchange were to take place it was expected less the 30% of the soviet weaponry would be effective. Either due to the weapon missing (very likely) or failing to function (jury is still out on that one. we thankfully never got to find out).
 That 30% would stil lay waste to much of the USA. On your end however our missles are extremlly accurate the soviet people would in all likely hood cease to exist.

 I do not want to make this a "us vs them" thread. However the reality of our 2 systems has to be realized. The soviets chose to BS & bully there way around the world & with there own people. Further they either didnt tell our outright lied to there own people about the effectiveness of the military. That also helped there eventual demise.
 The US conversly cant seem to keep a secret from its people for very long. It is the way of our country to have a large degree of disclosure to our people.
 In the USSR the politbeaurue ran the country . In the US the people run the country.
 In the USSR the military dictated to the people what must be done.
 In the US the people dictate to the military what must be done.

 2 vastly differant systems. The Soviet means  of governing started with the revolution of 1917 I believe was the date.
 The American system started in 1776 with our own revoulution.
 The soviet system lasted till 1989 with  huge loss to its own wellfare & impoverisong & oppresing its people.
 The American system isnt just still here today but it is thriving with every year more countries trying to model our system.

 So if you throw out all the facts... The last man (or country in this case) still standing is the winner.

 Have a pleasant day,
 
 Flash

[Fatty]

Sandman, you insist that the fact it was nukes in Cuba is not the issue.  However, up until those nukes were discovered, do you really believe there was no Soviet buildup in Cuba?

There most certainly was, proportionally much higher than ours with Taiwan.  We did not cause a fuss at that point, because as Cuba's ally they have a right to defend them.  We may not have liked it, but we accepted it.

The nukes are the issue, they are the only reason for the reaction that was obtained.

[Boroda]

Flashpan, you suffer from the very same propaganda, but aimed at Blue side of map  

Speaking about economics - we had completely rebuilt the whole country after the most horrible war in history and launched a first sattelite 12 years later, and had a first man in space in 16 years.

As for technological "superiority" - Soviet engineers laughed almost to death when they recieved Muiniuteman missile that felt on Cuba after an unsuccessful launch   It was worse then stone-age engineering   Damn, USSR have built an effective missile defence system in early 70s, after performing a first successful "behind-horison" ICBM intercept in mid-60s, while America still is unable to make a single ABM!

------------------
With respect,
    Pavel Pavlov,
    Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS

[Flashpan]

 

                Flashpan, you suffer from the very same propaganda, but aimed at Blue side of map

 Well hell I know that!   Its patriotism & national pride.

 

Speaking about economics - we had completely rebuilt the whole country after the most horrible war in history and launched
                 a first sattelite 12 years later, and had a first man in space in 16 years.

 Yes you did but at what cost?

 Adolf Hitler took a war ravaged country (that lost) and in 20 yrs had the strongest & most technically advanced army & airforce in the world.

 Additionaly, where do you think the USSR would be after WWII if the US hadnt enacted the war powers act & supply your country with HUGE amounts of raw materials, food, weapons & aircraft? I'll tell ya where.... Stalingrad would have fallen shortly followed by Moscow. Stalin would have been hanged & the following 50yrs of fear from the cold war  would have been abated. The USSR would not exist. Kinda ironic that the US made its own worst enemy....

 

As for technological "superiority" - Soviet engineers laughed almost to death when they recieved Muiniuteman missile that felt
                 on Cuba after an unsuccessful launch  It was worse then stone-age engineering  Damn, USSR have built an effective
                 missile defence system in early 70s, after performing a first successful "behind-horison" ICBM intercept in mid-60s, while
                 America still is unable to make a single ABM!

 This is kinda funny... Its pretty much world known that the USSR is at least 20yrs behind the US technologicly.
 Since the invention of the AK47 & Yak 3 the Soviets havent had a origianl idea. Nearly every "advance" they have had they either stole from a western power or bought some outdated technology.

 I think we should agree to disagree. As you said I am a victim of my countries propoganda same as you. The only differance is in the this country we get for the most part the truth while in the USSR you got what they wanted you to know.
 
 Good Day sir,

Flash

[funked]

Pablo, USA had a fully operational ABM system, limited to 100 missiles by SALT, in 1975 with the Safeguard system, using Sprint and Spartan missiles.  However the system was shut down by Congress for political reasons.

[Toad]

The point is... there are no surveillance aircraft off the coast of the United States. We enjoy a benign geography. Imagine if this were not the case. Imagine the U.S. reaction. That's my point."

Up until 1991 the USSR flew the same type of reconnaissance missions that we flew then and are flying now. As I posted, this resulted in over 300 intercepts in the Alaskan ADIZ area ALONE. There were also intecepts out of Iceland along the GIUK gap and out of our East Coast bases as the Soviet Aircraft flew down the coast to Cuba.

The *POINT* is that you will be unable to find an instance of us shooting at them, shooting them down or even colliding with one.

The *POINT* is that these aircraft were intercepted according to ICAO guidelines and identified and THAT'S ALL. There were no "international incidents"; in fact, only  a relatively small part of the American public was even aware that this was happening on a routine basis.

Therefore, I submit to you that the *POINT* is that our "reaction" to reconnaissance aircraft flying just outside our territorial waters (12 miles) has already been clearly demonstrated to anyone who takes a bit of time to research the subject and it is benign.

[Toad]

Sandman: "This statement is subjective. Some countries don't consider the U.S. to be as benevolent as we like to think we are."

...and so YOUR immediately following statement is NOT subjective? ROFLMAO.

Ask yourself this: When the sh*t hits the fan, to what country do folks generally look for help?

"The Soviet Union sought to arm Cuba with Nukes as a strategy of containing the U.S."

Contain the US? Soviet arms in Cuba kept the US from conquering Canada or Mexico? Man, I bet the Canadians and Mexicans didn't know that!

Sand, they put nukes in Cuba because it gave them the ability to put nukes on targets in the US before we could even get our silo doors open. It simply was an enhancement of their "first strike" capability.

"Aegis crusisers are multi-mission ships capable of anti-ship, anti-sub, and strike warfare as well as anti-air.

So you're thinking if the Taiwanese got 3 Aegis cruisers they could conquer mainland China? Or even mount a credible threat to do so?

I can see where anti-ship, anti-sub and anti-air capabilites would be useful for deterring an assault on Taiwan by a much larger adversary.

Strike warfare? 3 shiploads of Tomahawks can take down all of mainland China? Get real. There's not enough of this stuff to be used offensively. There's not really enough to make a difference defensively.

Taiwan is asking for the Aegis system on Kidd-class destroyers, Apache helicopters, Patriot anti-missile systems, submarines and anti-submarine aircraft. Some offensive war machine there, huh?

This to counter the 300-400 nuke-capable missiles deployed in mainland China within 100 miles of Taiwan.

Tell me again that Taiwan is "containing" China? Yeah, you bet. Little Taiwan has 'em cornered.   China is most definitely a victim.

[Toad]

 

Originally posted by Boroda:
Toad, October, 7th, 1959 - first SAM kill in history. An RB-57D heading to Beijing, deep over continental China. 3 S-75 missiles, all 3 hit the target. US admitted that "RB-57D was lost over Yellow sea".

I think that one is listed on the page this way:

"October 1959
An RB-57D operated by the Chinese Nationalists was shot down over mainland China."

Since it was clearly in Chinese airspace, I had deleted it.

About strategic bombers - you probably didn't get my point. US had them on CONSTANT AIRBORN PATROL over Europe, that means that several bombers (B-52s with 5 25megaton bombs) were cruising over Europe 24 hours a day, ready to  head to the East, penetrate Soviet aircraft defence and drop their load onto our cities EVERY MINUTE.

You probably didn't get my point, either.  

You guys had bombers with nukes up quite a bit as well. Not to mention the nukes in Cuban silos ready to go.

We just weren't paranoid enough to shoot down everything we could and then try to justify the paranoia by saying "hey, he could have been carrying a nuke!"

But if you want to justify taking out C-47's and shooting down 707's & 747's because they "could have been carrying nuke" in your airspace...  and if you want to justify shooting down Recon platforms in INTERNATIONAL AIRSPACE because they "could have been carrying a nuke"...

well, whatever helps you sleep at night, I guess.

I'm glad we didn't murder your aircrews in International Airspace though.

[Sandman_SBM]

 

However, up until those nukes were discovered, do you really believe there was no Soviet buildup in Cuba?

Never said that.

 

So you're thinking if the Taiwanese got 3 Aegis cruisers they could conquer mainland China? Or even mount a credible threat to do so?

Toad... You stated that the aegis cruiser are air defense cruisers. You're wrong. It's a multi-mission platform. You can argue the uses all you want. A Kidd class destroyer with SPY-1 or Aegis weapons system is not an aegis cruiser. An Aegis cruiser is the Ticonderoga class.

 

Tell me again that Taiwan is "containing" China?

You said it, not me. Go ahead and please continue both sides of the discussion.

Poof.

[This message has been edited by Sandman_SBM (edited 04-12-2001).]

[Toad]

Well, I hadn't really looked into what Taiwan was asking for until today. I had only heard the news blips.

The Washington Post article is the source for what I wrote above.

I don't blame ya for bolting the thread though.  

[funked]

Toad, FYI the Russians been flying some of those surveillance missions again, as recently as last year.  And as usual, the reaction was minimal.  A couple of escorts.  No collisions, no dramatics.  

Sandman has some neat theories.  Too bad the facts of the situtation don't fit them.

[Toad]

Yes, Funked, I heard they ran a few more. As you said it's no big deal to any normal country.

One of the things I have found most amazing in this EP-3 incident (on this and other BBS and in RL discussions with people) is how many people simply didn't know about intelligence gathering activities that are tasked against the US by foreign powers.

"I wonder how the US would react if...."

 

"Well, check the last 40 years to see how we DID react for a clue...."


 

[Hobodog]

Pretty succky to agile Yak-9s shot down both by two lumbering single engine(Though it was a Major Wasp) but the big thing 15 tonnes of metal and designed to be divebombers chinese are fuc^ing pitiful.