Author Topic: Reversing a P51  (Read 2096 times)

Offline WilldCrd

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Reversing a P51
« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2005, 06:10:18 PM »
correct me if im wrong but i thought the discussion was about the 51D vs the spit V? didnt see anything about the 202. So if joo is calling the morph man out i would suggest sticking to the topic you in your 51 D and morph in his spit V. in otherwords put your cash where your mouth is.

personally my money is on morph :cool:
nothing personal about it so dont take it that way.

The reason is simple, ive watch many a film of morphs, ive flown with and against him over the years and tho im not on par with morh i am on par at least with you bat
In a trun fight the spit would pwn the 51 easy! even using the 51's advantages if fighting a spit driver of morph's exp im thinking the 51 is still dead. becouse ive used some of his maneuvers in this same scenario and tho i dont come out the winner 100% i ALWAYS land some hits. And ussually suprise the hell out of the 51 when he is B-n-Z ing me and do that classic barrel roll reverse when he is 1k out and can go right to guns once he overshoots.

Same with the 9 too, in the right hands 51-D is dead meat...That being said if facing a good 51 stick then u got yourself a good fight my freind
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Offline Spatula

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Reversing a P51
« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2005, 06:26:53 PM »
heh, this thread is getting out of shape :) I never once mentioned what i was in. To set the record straight, i was in a P-51B, he in a P-51D. It was the best fight ive had since coming back to AH a few weeks back, so [you know who you are]. Its not often you get to have a genuine 1vs1 on equal terms in the MA. He got a good HO shot in on the re-merge after his turn, was quite impressive on the film :) - pilot kill. And yup, as most of you point out, i prob should have extended out after his 180deg uber-hard-E-bleed turn, but i didnt, and i dont regret it. I was 'in the zone', a real knife-fight, in equal planes.

Im more than well aware of the relative strengths of a P-51 and what to do, and what NOT to do in em. I flew the P-51D with good results for nearly 3 years in AH1, keeping a very respectable kill/death average. But i just have never seen someone reverse SO quickly in such a short space in AH1 (and i have seen nearly ALL of the tricks). Its good to know that such a move is possible and i may even reserve the right to use it myself if it came down to it.

Now... morph versus mech. Lets get it on!
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Offline Brooke

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Reversing a P51
« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2005, 08:00:10 PM »
I've seen P-51's and P-47's do a 180 very quickly.  I think it's the flaps.

Offline mechanic

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Reversing a P51
« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2005, 08:51:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by WilldCrd
correct me if im wrong but i thought the discussion was about the 51D vs the spit V? didnt see anything about the 202. So if joo is calling the morph man out i would suggest sticking to the topic you in your 51 D and morph in his spit V. in otherwords put your cash where your mouth is.

personally my money is on morph :cool:
nothing personal about it so dont take it that way.

The reason is simple, ive watch many a film of morphs, ive flown with and against him over the years and tho im not on par with morh i am on par at least with you bat
In a trun fight the spit would pwn the 51 easy! even using the 51's advantages if fighting a spit driver of morph's exp im thinking the 51 is still dead. becouse ive used some of his maneuvers in this same scenario and tho i dont come out the winner 100% i ALWAYS land some hits. And ussually suprise the hell out of the 51 when he is B-n-Z ing me and do that classic barrel roll reverse when he is 1k out and can go right to guns once he overshoots.

Same with the 9 too, in the right hands 51-D is dead meat...That being said if facing a good 51 stick then u got yourself a good fight my freind




yup you are right, im 60% sure he would beat me in the pony vs spitv everytime. and it was wrong to troll him on in this thread i appologise.

i could really use the $10 though.  nah, its childish, forget it morph. but we can duel for fun anytime.


if you would like to test your par also before making a statement like that then i would feel glad to duel you and morpheus.

I am in no way as good as i could get, i learn every flight, but i would be dishonest if i didnt admit that i feel proud to have developed my own style and refined the tech of it to a level i am happy with.

the reason a DA fight usually sucks is because you always get the same stupid merge.

and someone with something to proove always fires on that second ho.


and yes i think these days morph i would either ho you back or work around it alot of fights. I'm 10 times the virtual pilot i was last time we fought, but i expect you have also improoved in this time, so it could be interesting. but you dont seem to enjoy anything with genuine interest, its only comic interest for you i realise.



i have nothing to proove to you or myself though, so dont go on at me in your next 'reply/counter attack' please.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2005, 08:58:49 PM by mechanic »
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Offline Naytch

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Reversing a P51
« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2005, 09:26:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mechanic
yes.


OMFG a pony tuning with a spitV!!! Mind teaching me how? :D  :D  :D  :D

Offline mechanic

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Reversing a P51
« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2005, 10:50:57 PM »
all you have to do is think faster and fool your opponent for a few seconds and you can win or at least get a guns solution.



the most plausable way, and one i have used many times against MA spit5s is when you are lower and an easy target.

you let them bounce you and play dumb to about 600 yrds, or untill they startshooting with accuracy above 600 yrds. the reason its 600 not 1k is because at 600 yrds anyone who is bouncing a seemingly unsuspecting Pony in a spit5 will be 100 % commmited to turning with you for a shot and latching on your 6.......so....at about 600 yrds, break turn to the right and look backwards the whole time, as you start the turn reduce your power to minimum for a number of seconds and then increase it if he is sailing by your tail and switch to an opposite turn left wing down roll and add enough climb and rudder to avoid being shot.  he will sail by, he is expecting you to be running and trying to keep as fast as possible, you use what ever angle he gives you to turn his speed against him. at the very center possition of this move you want to be looking directly up through your canopy at him 'a la TopGun'. at this point you decide if you have enough time to roll level again before shooting, or if you will be forced to pull the shot inverted, banked 90 degrees, or whatever situation you are in..  this very short film shows what i mean but the planes are different and it is a front angle attack with speed from higher altitude. The first turn is to the left and very swift you'll miss it if yu blink kind of thing, but without it it would be almost impposible to succede in getting guns on before the 109 gets out of reach again... this move is exactly the same for any plane match-up anyhow though and if you are not mergeing at this angle then you can turn when he is at 1.5k to line up for the angle it requires, and lose/retain speed as much as is required for the match up.  zeke vs typh you wont need to lose much. P51 vs spitv you're gunna need to be dumping big time unless the spit is already going mach 0.7.


-------> http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/sweet_BnZ_reversal.ahf <-------

in this 40 seond clip we let a 109 come right at us without reacting and then at about 600 yrds break up to catch him off gaurd and hope your aim works. you only get one chance but you can increase that snapshot with good rudder peddals that i wish i had. :) I realise this is a very different plane match but it shows what i consider to be the very best angle to be attacked from, high 10 or 11 o'clock with just enough excess speed to want to go right back up again, but just enough oppertunity for shooting us given to commit his angle of BnZ to coincide with our planned move.


the reason i say turn to the right in the pony is because i find it is easier to do the follwing left wing down half loop/roll bit using the engines torque as a stabalizer as you pull the hard Gs.



Another way would be the obivous E fighting.  merge CO-E the spit will almost certainly snap right back over at you, and you leisurely take your time to climb far higher than he ever could. but that is not turning with him i agree.





another and more difficult way would be to fake commencing a rolling scissors fight be mergin very low and almost a flat turn, and then at some point make a steep dive with the power off....the spit will think you intend to run and chase at you full power.

There is of course the classic overshoot.

-------> http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/109_downs_spit9.ahf <-------

this 30 second clip shows not a pony unfortunately, but still something less suited to the job than a pony, a 190G6 being attacked by a high alt spitfire mkIX. you would think the spit would win but with a keen attention to your speed and your enemies you can surprise what looks like a sure kill into a painfull lesson. This spit9 attack our 6 at 430 mph and we are gooing around 350. The pilot simply expects us to run, try a break turn and keep running with as much speed as possible. the last thing he expected at this time was a break turn dumping over 150mph and using the vertical to force him outfront. admitedly the shot was 1 in 100 to make, but we we're on his six and not too much slower anyhow. he would have had one rope left in the bag before getting down and dirty, at which point he would have the upper hand again.






and finally, the main way to win anyfight is to be one step ahead of your enemy, i know when i get shot down alot that i am being out thunk not out performanced.


-------> http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/LA7_downs_zeke.ahf <-------
 
last 30 second clip, an la7 killing a zeke in a rolling scissors style turn fight. i edited the 5 mins of fight where the la7 worked from 1k below the zeke to 1k above, but where we start is a normal attacking run on a slower plane.

it might look like the enemy is just unskilled (this is simply not true with yonoi), but check out the speedometer the whole time we are attacking we are also losing speed. the zeke will often try very similar evasives to a spitfire so i think this is relative.   He was expecting a fast attack and zoom climb, but we commited the la7 with abloutely no power beind those turns aside from small surges to help roll over. through out thinking the A6m we and made ourselves a few chances before losing or running.








its all in the mind and reflex. speed of descsion making.


its not easy but i think the pony could outfly the spit with equal pilots certainly.   the spit is uber but a pilot is still a pilot.



offer one easy shot, look like a noob, then attack when they least expect it.



make the possitions you most  feel vulnerable  from and make them the time to launch your attack from. if you hate being BnZ, learn a trick and perfect it.

If you hate being outturned, learn the overshoot and stall fighting.


etc, etc.



it is not all about turning circles and stereotypes.

ManeTMP showed me the way when he slaughtered my spit5 in a P47d40 back almost 18 months ago now.

all he did was made himself look juicy, then attacked when i was certain of victory.










edit: frantically looking through 1000s of films for a good P51 demo killing a spit5, i know i have seen it doene one on one with two good sticks before.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2005, 12:27:50 AM by mechanic »
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Offline mechanic

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Reversing a P51
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2005, 01:36:40 PM »
well, you did ask for my explanation. there it is.
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Offline humble

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Reversing a P51
« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2005, 04:22:10 PM »
I ran into fester about a month ago (haven't been up since). He was in a D pony and I was in a -1 hog. He was harassing a field I'd upped out of and we ended up playing tag for about 4 or 5 different remerges. I'd chase him and he'd extend and reverse....he was conservative the 1st couple...but 3 thru 5 he reversed very close to me (in that 1.2-1.4 range) and got real down and dirty. How fast he reversed amazed me...we endup up locked in tumbling stall fights at 15k or so with me unable to gain a solution and he cleaned up and extended when he found himself deadlocked as well. He finally got me on a pretty mini rope...no lcue how he can judge that stuff so well....swear I was inside 600 with him sitting on the top of my gun sight for 30 sec or more but no joy:(........

Anyway, in the right hands a pony will do amazing things....so yes at that speed its pretty easy for a pony to reverse...but I dont know why a pilot that good would sacrifice angles to HO or give you the front quarter ahot vs to what fester did which is go angles in a high to low to high to start a vertical rolling scissors type of fight which the pony will excel in.....

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Offline MajWoody

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Reversing a P51
« Reply #38 on: December 24, 2005, 11:06:22 PM »
Grmrpr will knife fight & do pretty well in a pony. Had several fights with him last tour & he did some pretty amazing moves in that thing. I have no idea how he does it. I am total cannon fodder in a pony.    lol
Lets keep the stupid to a minimum.
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Offline Zazen13

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Re: Reversing a P51
« Reply #39 on: December 24, 2005, 11:14:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Spatula
Question:
If you were following a P-51D at d 1.1 - 1.2 at about 280-290MPH, would it be reasonable to expect him to be able to reverse (eg turn a complete 180 degrees) within that distance and be able to get his nose around enough to HO you?



Thoughts??


I've seen Wldthing do this without even batting an eye. I think I even have a film of it somewhere. I have done it myself with varying degrees of success. Like Morpheus I'd much rather lure him in a little closer and force the overshoot rather than completely rev for a HO.

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Offline eilif

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Reversing a P51
« Reply #40 on: December 25, 2005, 04:35:18 AM »
The pony can turn with just about any plane for the first couple loops, including the spit 5, specialy with the new spit 5 fm. Its not playing to its strengths tho and is simply foolish, and arguing about it is even more foolish.   "dont bring a knife to a gun fight"

Offline Glasses

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« Reply #41 on: December 25, 2005, 12:17:54 PM »
Yup the AH2  pony can  Sweat E faster, gain E faster, turn faster ,Ho fast and just do everything better, longer, harde,r and more efficient than the AH1 ,Earthly bound Pony D.

So It's like the Movie "Team America: World Police",but in a Plane :D

Offline Dead Man Flying

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« Reply #42 on: December 25, 2005, 07:51:09 PM »
I taught GrmRpr everything he knows.  :)

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Offline MajWoody

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« Reply #43 on: December 26, 2005, 01:52:42 AM »
:)
Lets keep the stupid to a minimum.
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Offline gatt

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Reversing a P51
« Reply #44 on: December 26, 2005, 02:42:10 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Spatula
heh, this thread is getting out of shape :) I never once mentioned what i was in. To set the record straight, i was in a P-51B, he in a P-51D. It was the best fight ive had since coming back to AH a few weeks back, so [you know who you are]. Its not often you get to have a genuine 1vs1 on equal terms in the MA. He got a good HO shot in on the re-merge after his turn, was quite impressive on the film :) - pilot kill. And yup, as most of you point out, i prob should have extended out after his 180deg uber-hard-E-bleed turn, but i didnt, and i dont regret it. I was 'in the zone', a real knife-fight, in equal planes.

Im more than well aware of the relative strengths of a P-51 and what to do, and what NOT to do in em. I flew the P-51D with good results for nearly 3 years in AH1, keeping a very respectable kill/death average. But i just have never seen someone reverse SO quickly in such a short space in AH1 (and i have seen nearly ALL of the tricks). Its good to know that such a move is possible and i may even reserve the right to use it myself if it came down to it.

Now... morph versus mech. Lets get it on!


Spatula! Old hand! Howdy! :)

You have to get used to this special e-bleeding FM. Forget AH1.
And be aware even when you try to counter a classic scissor manoeuver. Enemy now can pull up, chase and get you even after a couple of break turns ;)
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