Author Topic: And pigs will fly  (Read 4030 times)

Offline Samiam

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« Reply #135 on: November 10, 2005, 09:41:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ChickenHawk

I cannot produce enough scientific evidence to support the ID theory that would satisfy you.  I personaly have had enough life experiences though, to convince me of a devine being and Creator.
 



As have good portion of the human race. I have never claimed that your conviction is wrong. But I insist that this conviction is NOT a result of science and discussion of it has no place in a science curriculum - which is entirely concerned with how we explain the natural universe.

Quote
Originally posted by ChickenHawk

On the other hand, you cannot produce positive proof that the universe started with a big bang or that macro evolution has ever occured or is occuring.  No missing link has ever been found.


Science can and has produced overwhelming evidence that natural selection, adaptation, and mutation have occurred throughout time and are occuring. Science can and has produced convincing evidence to support predominant hypotheses regarding the origins of the universe, as well as for species origins. (Just because your pseudo fringe-scientists claim otherwise, doesn't mean that a preponderance of evendence doesn't exist that the scientific community accepts).

But what you have done here, once again, is assert a negative to support your claim. Lack of certain specifics in one theory DO NOT lend support to an alternate hypothesis.

Why is it so hard to understand that a negative statement is not scientific evidence?

If you look in your garage and find that your car is not there, you cannot immediately assert that it is on fire in France.

It is fantastically flawed logic to assert that because science has yet to fill in certain details, God MUST have created man in His image.

Again, while it may actually be TRUE that God did, indeed, set forth a chain of events that led to man being created in His image - there is no possible way to prove this scientifically and therefore the discussion of ID does NOT belong in a science curriculum. A science curriculum should give students the skills and understanding needed to explain our natural universe so that we can grow more and better food, cure disease, build awsome computers to play games on, and generally improve the human condition. It is a disservice to introduce unsubstantiated, supernatural claims as science.

Maybe you want to fly in an airplane made of a composite created by a chemist who substituted divine inspiration for actually testing his formulae, but I prefer to rely on scientists who have been taught from day one how to differentiate scientific rigor from faith-based convictions.

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #136 on: November 10, 2005, 09:43:44 PM »
It's funny to me.....

Something as simple as a plastic spoon could never be considered by any rational person to have created itself, yet people have no problem believing that all of the universe and all of life just created itself at random.

Might as well just believe in magic.

Intelligent design can be proven. There are things that we know exist as a result of intelligent design and no other reason.. Like a TV set or a car, or even a cloned animal (life).

Without intelligent design, many things would not exist. Seems like a good basis for a theory.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2005, 09:48:31 PM by NUKE »

Offline Samiam

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« Reply #137 on: November 10, 2005, 09:52:24 PM »
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Originally posted by NUKE
Does anyone dispute the idea that some things exist only as a result of intelligent design?


NUKE, let's not lose sight of the point.

I am not disputing intelligent design.

What I am disputing is that ID has anything to do with science.

Even the moronic Kansas board of education understands enough about science that ID has no place in it. Their solution was to simply REDEFINE what science is - to include the supernatural.

This can have some unintended consequenses.

I hope some smart-ass Kansan science teacher has the cohones to start teaching wicken spell casting as a way to clense students bodies to protect them from disease. Once you redifine science to include the supernatural, you have opened a real can of worms.

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #138 on: November 10, 2005, 09:54:48 PM »
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Originally posted by Samiam
NUKE, let's not lose sight of the point.

I am not disputing intelligent design.

What I am disputing is that ID has anything to do with science.

 


But it's a almost a proven fact that certain things in our universe only exist as a result of intelligent design.

Science itself is an intelligent design. If there was not intelligent design, science would not exist.  I win.

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #139 on: November 10, 2005, 10:00:53 PM »
Isn't it ironic that science is a result of intelligent design? Science could not exist without an intelligent creator/creators.

Smoke that.

Offline Samiam

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« Reply #140 on: November 10, 2005, 10:00:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
It's funny to me.....

Something as simple as a plastic spoon could never be considered by any rational person to have created itself, yet people have no problem believing that all of the universe and all of life just created itself at random.

Might as well just believe in magic.

Intelligent design can be proven. There are things that we know exist as a result of intelligent design and no other reason.. Like a TV set or a car, or even a cloned animal (life).

Without intelligent design, many things would not exist. Seems like a good basis for a theory.


There's nothing supernatural in the creation of a plastic spoon. I can point to the intelligent designer. I can explain in excrutiating detail exactly how the spoon is made. I can even explain what inspired the design and creation of the spoon. All without conjuring up the supernatural.

ID, on the other hand, defies this explanation. It's worse than that: A biblical basis for ID declares such an explanation to be IMPOSSIBLE and any other supernatural explanation as heresy. It's a trap - if ID were science by the well accepted definition, it would be heresey.

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #141 on: November 10, 2005, 10:03:14 PM »
I am in awe of you incredible capacity to totally not understand what you are talking about NUKE.


I win!

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #142 on: November 10, 2005, 10:06:39 PM »
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Originally posted by Samiam
There's nothing supernatural in the creation of a plastic spoon. I can point to the intelligent designer.  


You dont get it.

A plastic spoon is a simple thing, yet if you had never seen one before, you would assume that an intelligence was behind it's design.

On the other hand, if you saw a frog for the first time, which is infinatley more complex than a plastic spoon, you would not even consider that an intelligence was behind it's design.

Can you explain the existance of the frog in the same detail that you could explain the plastic spoon? I think not....which only solidifies my point.

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #143 on: November 10, 2005, 10:07:40 PM »
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Originally posted by Thrawn
I am in awe of you incredible capacity to totally not understand what you are talking about NUKE.


I win!


It probably doesn't take much for you to be in awe of something.

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #144 on: November 10, 2005, 10:13:00 PM »
Hey Thrawn, is science just a random series of thoughts, or is it a result of intelligent design?

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #145 on: November 10, 2005, 10:17:39 PM »
Sometimes I have to take a step back and remind myself that I am a product of God, who created the universe. My creativity, talents, intelligence and good looks are all gifts from God.

When I die, I will be complete.

Offline Samiam

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« Reply #146 on: November 10, 2005, 10:26:26 PM »
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Originally posted by NUKE
You dont get it.

A plastic spoon is a simple thing, yet if you had never seen one before, you would assume that an intelligence was behind it's design.

On the other hand, if you saw a frog for the first time, which is infinatley more complex than a plastic spoon, you would not even consider that an intelligence was behind it's design.

Can you explain the existance of the frog in the same detail that you could explain the plastic spoon? I think not....which only solidifies my point.


OK, just this one more time.

Yes, I can explain in detail how the frog came to be, to include its chemical makeup, how ma and pa frog created our little subject frog. I can produce a fossil record that shows early amphibians and how they developed specializations that led to what we know today as a frog. I can produce currently living creatures that have both fish-like and frog-like attributes, indicating a link between fish and frogs. I can produce DNA that shows the genetic makup of the frog and how that makeup is a decendent of ancient amphibians.

All of this is science and should be taught in science class.


A subjective observation such as you've made - that the frog is infinitely complex and therefore that an intelligent designer must be given credit for its existence - cannot be be substantiated through science. Therefore, it doesn't belong in science class.

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #147 on: November 10, 2005, 10:34:00 PM »
You cannot explain how the frog came to have life and exist....nobody can, yet you automatically assume that it exists as a result of a random series of  events.

You view the spoon in a different way.......you *assume* it was a result of intelligent design and that it could not possibly have been the result of a random series of events.

Thus, you are conflicted.

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #148 on: November 10, 2005, 10:57:30 PM »
It's pretty much a proven fact that some things in our universe exist only as a result of ID, so ID must be a viable theory.


I Win.

Offline Samiam

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« Reply #149 on: November 10, 2005, 10:57:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
You cannot explain how the frog came to have life and exist....nobody can, yet you automatically assume that it exists as a result of a random series of  events.

You view the spoon in a different way.......you *assume* it was a result of intelligent design and that it could not possibly have been the result of a random series of events.

Thus, you are conflicted.


I assume nothing.

What I can explain and substantiate naturally, I do. I seek to maximize what I can explain naturally. This is science.

I accept intelligent design as one hypothesis for that which we cannot (yet?) explain naturally. I have no criticism of ID other than it is NOT SCIENCE. By definition, it cannot be scientifically substantiated. Teach it in religeous studies. Teach it in philosopy. Teach it at home and in church. Shout it from the mountain tops - you will get no argument from me.

But DO NOT teach the potential future designers of pharmaceuticals on which my life may one day depend that ID is in any way shape or form grounded in science.