Author Topic: And pigs will fly  (Read 4557 times)

Offline Chairboy

  • Probation
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8221
      • hallert.net
And pigs will fly
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2005, 11:10:03 PM »
ID is just creationism, anyone who says otherwise is either fooling themselves or being deliberately disingenuos.

It's an effort to remove science and replace it with religion in public schools, and a disgrace.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Hangtime

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10148
And pigs will fly
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2005, 11:12:19 PM »
“During the youthful period of mankind's spiritual evolution human fantasy created gods in man's own image, who, by the operations of their will were supposed to determine, or at any rate to influence, the phenomenal world. Man sought to alter the disposition of these gods in his own favor by means of magic and prayer. The idea of God in the religions taught at present is a sublimation of that old concept of the gods. Its anthropomorphic character is shown, for instance, by the fact that men appeal to the Divine Being in prayers and plead for the fulfillment of their wishes.

“Nobody, certainly, will deny that the idea of the existence of an omnipotent, just, and omnibeneficent personal God is able to accord man solace, help, and guidance; also, by virtue of its simplicity it is accessible to the most undeveloped mind. But, on the other hand, there are decisive weaknesses attached to this idea in itself, which have been painfully felt since the beginning of history. That is, if this being is omnipotent, then every occurrence, including every human action, every human thought, and every human feeling and aspiration is also His work; how is it possible to think of holding men responsible for their deeds and thoughts before such an almighty Being? In giving out punishment and rewards He would to a certain extent be passing judgment on Himself. How can this be combined with the goodness and righteousness ascribed to Him?

“The main source of the present-day conflicts between the spheres of religion and of science lies in this concept of a personal God. It is the aim of science to establish general rules which determine the reciprocal connection of objects and events in time and space. For these rules, or laws of nature, absolutely general validity is required—not proven. It is mainly a program, and faith in the possibility of its accomplishment in principle is only founded on partial successes. But hardly anyone could be found who would deny these partial successes and ascribe them to human self-deception. The fact that on the basis of such laws we are able to predict the temporal behavior of phenomena in certain domains with great precision and certainty is deeply embedded in the consciousness of the modern man, even though he may have grasped very little of the contents of those laws. He need only consider that planetary courses within the solar system may be calculated in advance with great exactitude on the basis of a limited number of simple laws. In a similar way, though not with the same precision, it is possible to calculate in advance the mode of operation of an electric motor, a transmission system, or of a wireless apparatus, even when dealing with a novel development.

“To be sure, when the number of factors coming into play in a phenomenological complex is too large, scientific method in most cases fails us. One need only think of the weather, in which case prediction even for a few days ahead is impossible. Nevertheless no one doubts that we are confronted with a causal connection whose causal components are in the main known to us. Occurrences in this domain are beyond the reach of exact prediction because of the variety of factors in operation, not because of any lack of order in nature.

“We have penetrated far less deeply into the regularities obtaining within the realm of living things, but deeply enough nevertheless to sense at least the rule of fixed necessity. One need only think of the systematic order in heredity, and in the effect of poisons, as for instance alcohol, on the behavior of organic beings. What is still lacking here is a grasp of connections of profound generality, but not a knowledge of order in itself.

“The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature. For him neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exists as an independent cause of natural events. To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with natural events could never be refuted, in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot.

“But I am persuaded that such behavior on the part of the representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is able to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress. In their struggle for the ethical good, teachers of religion must have the stature to give up the doctrine of a personal God, that is, give up that source of fear and hope which in the past placed such vast power in the hands of priests. In their labors they will have to avail themselves of those forces which are capable of cultivating the Good, the True, and the Beautiful in humanity itself. This is, to be sure, a more difficult but an incomparably more worthy task.”


Albert Einstein, Science, Philosophy, and Religion, A 1934 Symposium published by the Conference on Science, Philosophy and Religion in Their Relation to the Democratic Way of Life, Inc., New York, 1941; from Einstein's Out of My Later Years, Westport, Connecticut: Greenwood Press, 1970, pp. 26-29.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline NUKE

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8599
      • Arizona Greens
And pigs will fly
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2005, 11:13:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
ID is just creationism, anyone who says otherwise is either fooling themselves or being deliberately disingenuos.

It's an effort to remove science and replace it with religion in public schools, and a disgrace.


I view evolution and the big bang to be illogical and opposed to what is being taught about physics and science.

The fact is that it is just as logical to seek answers based on a supreme intelligence as it is to cling to the idea that all the matter in the universe exploded into existance from nothing and created life.

Offline Hangtime

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10148
And pigs will fly
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2005, 11:17:33 PM »
You smarter than Einstein, Nuke?
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Sandman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17620
And pigs will fly
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2005, 11:18:49 PM »
sand

Offline NUKE

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8599
      • Arizona Greens
And pigs will fly
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2005, 11:19:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
You smarter than Einstein, Nuke?


probably not. Einstein believed in a supreme intelligence and said so several times though.

Offline Chairboy

  • Probation
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8221
      • hallert.net
And pigs will fly
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2005, 11:20:00 PM »
I can't tell if you're being deliberately obtuse or if you really believe that.  I'll assume good faith and decide that it must be the latter, though it boggles my mind.

Of course...  this ruling also rules that anything that's too "hard" to understand can be considered the result of magic.  The decision of religious folks to decide that quantum mechanics is too hard to understand is fine.  It's natural.  But deciding that since THEY can't understand it means that it must just be false...

That's like ruling that pi=3.

Oh wait.  That happened too.  In Indiana.  http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_341.html
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline NUKE

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8599
      • Arizona Greens
And pigs will fly
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2005, 11:23:13 PM »
Hey Sandman, don't you find it a little ironic that people who absolutley believe that all matter exploded into existance on it's own one fine day and created the universe and all life, have a problem with even the chance that it could have been the work of a creator?

Offline Hangtime

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10148
And pigs will fly
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2005, 11:24:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
Einstein believed in a supreme intelligence and said so several times though.


Bull****.
 
Quote
“It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.”


Albert Einstein, in a letter March 24, 1954; from Albert Einstein the Human Side, Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, eds., Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 1981, p. 43.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline NUKE

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8599
      • Arizona Greens
And pigs will fly
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2005, 11:32:37 PM »
Hang, I can come up with at least 4 quotes that Einstein made on the subject.

Eienstein did not believe in a "personal" god and stated that several times. He believed that the supreme intelligence behind the universe did not care for humans on a personal level.

He even wrote an essay on the futility of prayer. He believed that the universe was the work of a supreme intelligence though.

Offline NUKE

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8599
      • Arizona Greens
And pigs will fly
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2005, 11:35:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
I can't tell if you're being deliberately obtuse or if you really believe that.  I'll assume good faith and decide that it must be the latter, though it boggles my mind.

Of course...  this ruling also rules that anything that's too "hard" to understand can be considered the result of magic.  The decision of religious folks to decide that quantum mechanics is too hard to understand is fine.  It's natural.  But deciding that since THEY can't understand it means that it must just be false...

That's like ruling that pi=3.

Oh wait.  That happened too.  In Indiana.  http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_341.html



Chairboy, maybe you are the one who has trouble understanding. Ever have a mind open enough to think that perhapse you don't undertand?

Can you explain the existance of matter in laymens terms for me? How did it come into being?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2005, 11:38:36 PM by NUKE »

Offline Chairboy

  • Probation
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8221
      • hallert.net
And pigs will fly
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2005, 11:53:23 PM »
Quite frankly, the burden of proof is not on me, because I'm not the guy saying a magic bearded guy made everything up because you don't understand quantum foam theory, so... no.  I won't be your pet monkey, get your kicks elsewhere.  We both know that you're not really interested in anything I have to say.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Gunslinger

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10084
And pigs will fly
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2005, 11:55:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman


what he said.  Why don't we argue over abortion, or WMDs, or swift boats, or riots/natural disasters?  Those arguments allways bring out the loonies.  These ones involve science and alot of thinking.  Woa I need a nap.

Offline Hangtime

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10148
And pigs will fly
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2005, 11:57:46 PM »
Only a religious fanatic could read Einstein and come up with 'supreme intelligence'.

Or a troll.

Or both.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline NUKE

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8599
      • Arizona Greens
And pigs will fly
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2005, 11:58:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
Quite frankly, the burden of proof is not on me, because I'm not the guy saying a magic bearded guy made everything up because you don't understand quantum foam theory, so... no.  I won't be your pet monkey, get your kicks elsewhere.  We both know that you're not really interested in anything I have to say.



I am interested.....intensley.


You seem to be stuck on a "magic beared guy". My position is that it is just as logical to be open to an intelligent creator as it is to believe in a random creator.


An intelligent creator seems more logical to me though, since everything in our universe follows logic, reason and laws rather than random events and chaos.