Spitfire Mk VIII

[Crumpp]

I always remember about the first XII encounters with 190s. the XIIs were able to extend away from the 190s and on more then one occasion they'd forgotten to jettison the slipper tank.

Even at the bottom end of FW-190A performance it is generally faster at lower altitudes than the Spitfire Mk XII.

Is this anecdotal evidence Guppy?

Given Focke Wulfs 3% manufacturer's guarantee from their listed speed at sea level of 578kph we see flight-tested data going from 565kph to 588kph.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/dp845speed.gif

If it is "game" performance then you are correct.

HTC models the FW-190 well below the manufactures listed specifications:

http://www.hitechcreations.com/frindex.html


All the best,

Crumpp

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Even at the bottom end of FW-190A performance it is generally faster at lower altitudes than the Spitfire Mk XII.

Is this anecdotal evidence Guppy?

Given Focke Wulfs 3% manufacturer's guarentee from their listed speed at sea level of 578kph we see flight tested data going from 565kph  to 588kph.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/dp845speed.gif

If it is "game" performance then you are correct.

HTC models the FW-190 well below the manufactuers listed specifications:

http://www.hitechcreations.com/frindex.html


All the best,

Crumpp

Found in combat reports from 41 Squadron when they first went into action with the XII.  Joe Birbeck had knocked down a 190 and was being pursued by another.  340 IAS on the deck, trailing 190 couldn't catch him even though Birbeck had forgotten to jettison the 30 gallon slipper tank .  April 43.  The XIIs always went with the 30 gallon slipper tank, to make up for the higher fuel consumption of the Griffon III/IV.  They'd just transitioned from clipped Vbs so I imagine they'd not gotten used to dropping tanks and forgot to in the heat of combat.

No clue which 190A variant was involved.  And I won't argue numbers with ya  Reality or otherwise, those XII drivers thought  they had the edge and it made a difference in how they flew against the 190s.

[Crumpp]

Where were they at Dan?

The Spitfire Mk XII has definate performance edge over the FW-190G series which has a different motor set up and drag profile than the Anton.

Our AH FW-190A5 is based on FW-190G series aircraft that the allies attempted to convert back to Antons.  It's performance falls inbetween the Gustav and the Anton.


All the best,

Crumpp

[Crumpp]

I found some information on Spitfire Mk XII's defending against FW-190's making "hit and run" raids against England from bases in Normandy.

Do you have an exact date, I might be able to tell which Luftwaffe unit they most likely encountered.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Squire
Yup, typo. +15 lbs.

Is it faster at 319 mph? maybe just a few mph?...

Nope..Still does 319.

My regards,

Widewing

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Where were they at Dan?

The Spitfire Mk XII has definate performance edge over the FW-190G series which has a different motor set up and drag profile than the Anton.

Our AH FW-190A5 is based on FW-190G series aircraft that the allies attempted to convert back to Antons.  It's performance falls inbetween the Gustav and the Anton.


All the best,

Crumpp

April 27, 1943

Calais/Somme Estuary area.  It was a two ship recce flight of XIIs.  They were at 1500 feet and were intercepted by 2 190s flying at the same height with the fight descending to sea level.  One of the XIIs was damaged by cannon fire but got home by outrunning the 190 on his 6.  He still had his tank on.  His wingman turned into the 190s and got one before outrunning the other, again failing to jettision his slipper tank.

Another fight involved XIIs of 91 squadron intercepted 190A5s of SKG 10 that had been attacking the coastal towns at dawn and dusk.  This was May 25th near Folkstone where 4 XIIs interecepted an estimated 15 190A5s. and claimed 5 for no loss.

[Crumpp]

April 27, 1943

Interesting.

Calais/Somme Estuary is well within JG26's area and most likely would they would have been assigned any reconnasissance flight interception.

I show no activity on the 27th of April 1943.  However on the 23 April 1943 No. 41 squadron reconnasissance flight interception is specifically mentioned.  Obfw. Fritsch of the 5th Staffel led "offensive-defensive" patrols.  

No FW190's were lost and one "Spitfire" was claimed.  However the claim investigation of the crash site awarded credit for a "Mustang".

The Mustangs were not pursed as the patrol was low on fuel.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Angus]

I may have some data on this, but the book is not at home so I'll have to go from memory.
"This" is from Crumpp i.e.:

"Even at the bottom end of FW-190A performance it is generally faster at lower altitudes than the Spitfire Mk XII.

Is this anecdotal evidence Guppy?"

Johnny Johnsson flew some little bit with Ray Harries. I think it was the XII rather than the XIV.
Since the 190's sometimes were timid to mix it properly (after the introduction of Griffon engined and boosted up Spits) they would allow the 190's to jump them. The Spits would break high and let the 190's zoom past then actually hunt them down. Downhill and pure power & speed chase.

I remember that Johnny thought that Harris must be mad to try this but it actually worked!

Book was "Wing leader"

edit: The perforfmance test of the XII on the spitfiretesting site is not really that impressive as far as I remember it. Does anyone have additional data?

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Interesting.

Calais/Somme Estuary is well within JG26's area and most likely would they would have been assigned any reconnasissance flight interception.

I show no activity on the 27th of April 1943.  However on the 23 April 1943 No. 41 squadron reconnasissance flight interception is specifically mentioned.  Obfw. Fritsch of the 5th Staffel led "offensive-defensive" patrols.  

No FW190's were lost and one "Spitfire" was claimed.  However the claim investigation of the crash site awarded credit for a "Mustang".

The Mustangs were not pursed as the patrol was low on fuel.

All the best,

Crumpp

Hmm.  Specific to the combat reports was a note that radio intercepts were made indicating a German aircraft down at the same time as the engagement.

the second XII was being fired at in the tail chase initially and was jinking like mad as he pulled away.

And of course there was clearly an engagement if the lead Spit XII suffered cannon and MG hits

[Crumpp]

And of course there was clearly an engagement if the lead Spit XII suffered cannon and MG hits

Sure,

Very likely though it was not with a fighter variant Anton.  More likely it was with 11/JG54 or SKG 10 who were heavily involved in bombing raids on Britain.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Crumpp]

Since the 190's sometimes were timid to mix it properly (after the introduction of Griffon engined and boosted up Spits) they would allow the 190's to jump them.

Spitfires make up 50% of the kills of many of the Western Experten:

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/spit.html

Which is very surprising when compared to some of the other allied fighters.

P-47:

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/thunderbolt.html

P-51:

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/mustang.html

P-38:

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/lightning.html

The FW-190 pilots I have spoken with all say the same thing.  They were not worried about any single allied fighter in the FW-190.

It was the large numbers of allied fighters that were worrisome.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Spitfires make up 50% of the kills of many of the Western Experten:

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/spit.html

Which is very surprising when compared to some of the other allied fighters.

P-47:

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/thunderbolt.html

P-51:

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/mustang.html

P-38:

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/lightning.html

The FW-190 pilots I have spoken with all say the same thing.  They were not worried about any single allied fighter in the FW-190.

It was the large numbers of allied fighters that were worrisome.

All the best,

Crumpp

Doesn't surprise me as they'd have been fighting Spits since 1940 where they'd have been seeing Jugs since 43 and 38s and Mustangs from 44.  Sheer numbers of Spits vs the others would make up for the numbers variance I'd  think.  Throw in the happy time for the 190 drivers when they were dealing with Spit IIs and Vs into late 42 and the world was theirs

Too bad it's not broken down into Spit variants.  Wonder how many were early Spits vs the Spit IX and later?

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Angus
I may have some data on this, but the book is not at home so I'll have to go from memory.
"This" is from Crumpp i.e.:

"Even at the bottom end of FW-190A performance it is generally faster at lower altitudes than the Spitfire Mk XII.

Is this anecdotal evidence Guppy?"

Johnny Johnsson flew some little bit with Ray Harries. I think it was the XII rather than the XIV.
Since the 190's sometimes were timid to mix it properly (after the introduction of Griffon engined and boosted up Spits) they would allow the 190's to jump them. The Spits would break high and let the 190's zoom past then actually hunt them down. Downhill and pure power & speed chase.

I remember that Johnny thought that Harris must be mad to try this but it actually worked!

Book was "Wing leader"

edit: The perforfmance test of the XII on the spitfiretesting site is not really that impressive as far as I remember it. Does anyone have additional data?

I tracked down JEJ during my Spit XII hunt because of that passage in Wing Leader.  He flew with the Tangmere Spit XII wing on November 17, 1943.   This was after the big day of October 20, 1943 when they got 9-10 for no loss.  They didn't score again until January and that was only a single kill by a 91 pilot.  The 109s and 190s quit playing after the 20th.

JEJ was kind enough to copy that logbook page for me.  Interesting that Ray Harries let him fly "RH" which was Ray Harries aircraft.

In Wing Leader the comment was that Harries led them under a formation of LW aircraft but they refused to come down.

[Squire]

How is it surprising when most USAAF FGs didnt even enter the ETO with US built a/c untill late 1943-44? Whats the date for the P-51, Dec 43? 1st escorted raid by P-38s in the 8th AF was October 1943, 55th FG. RAF had been in action for over 3 1/2 years by then. I will mention the US 4th FG which was the USAs "pioneer FG" and they flew Spit Vs untill 43.

Ask any Bf 109, Spitfire, Tempest, F6F, F4U-1, P-47, Ki-84 or P-51 veteran and they will express the same level of confidence in their a/c. Fighter pilots were not by nature, timid people who fretted that their plane might be a few mph slower...Fw 190 pilots express the same level of confidence, no surprise as it was one of the wars finest fighters.  

As for your assertions that it was just a big "gang bang", I will throw some facts on that:

You can get the books if you like, "2nd TAF Vol.I" and "2nd TAF Vol.II" by Christopher Shores.

I will give some illustrative examples, again, I wont quote the entire works, much as I would like to...and I will paraphrase for brevity:

28 June 1944:

401 Sqn engages 20 109s and 20 190s S. of Caen.
411 Sqn engages 15 109s and 190s S. of Caen, and again later in the day, meet another similar sized group in the same area.
401 Sqn engages 12 190s later in the day.

-Thats some of the action.

RCAF Spits claimed 26 LW fighters, losing 4 a/c and 3 pilots, the -LWs own records indicate they lost 29 in the fighting- . No USAAF claims were made.

29 June 1944:

Similar fighting, with RAF/RCAF claiming 13 while losing 8, USAAF claiming 10 (in different sector). -LW own records indicate they lost 22-

30 June 1944:

441 Sqn engages a squadron of 109s near Argentan.
401 Sqn engages a squadron of 190s near Argentan-Falaise.

-Again, some of the action.

RAF/RCAF claimed 21, losing 4 fighters, the USAAF claimed 7 (in different sector) and the -LWs own records show they lost 22 in the fighting-

Several things are clear from reading about the fighting on the western front. Firstly, despite both air forces possessing large fighter contingents, much, if not most of the fighting was done "ambush style" with several squadrons involved on each side, and often with only flights and single squadrons attacking similar sized units. Allied fighters could easily be engaged with a larger enemy force in the air, despite possessing a numerical advantage overall, and that the LW suffered just as many serious reversals in combat as they dished out, despite the BBS mythology to the contrary...

F/L Kennedy (quoted from the 28th June combat):

"We were jumped by a squadron of Fw 190s out of the sun. A good old fashioned scrap followed right down to ground level. My new Spitfire IX was too much for a Focke Wulf pilot who stayed for the scrap. He had a good a/c but could not turn with a Spit IX, and when I got on his tail I knew I had him. One short burst and he was into the trees with a great flash of fire".

Happy Remembrance Day.

[Crumpp]

As for your assertions that it was just a big "gang bang", I will throw some facts on that:

It's not my assertions Squire, its the guys who lived it.

Your quoting an action as seen from one allied squadron.  Very rarely in the last year of the war did the Luftwaffe encounter just one allied squadron.

Look at the respective air forces doctrine.  Ground attack missions always have a dedicated fighter escort.

Jadgdivision 5 threw everything they had that day to try and stop Montgomery's drive on Caen.  They flew 356 sorties as ground attack missions against the combined strength of the 2nd TAF and 8th Air Force covering the beaches.  The three RCAF Spitfire wings were there along with several P51 and P47 Groups.

All the best,

Crumpp