Author Topic: 109 performance notes  (Read 6130 times)

Offline Kurfürst

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109 performance notes
« Reply #60 on: November 15, 2005, 08:03:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charge
IIRC in FGK models the ailerons drooped a bit as the flaps were lowered. Did the E have a same feature?

-C+


The other way around. The Emils ailerons dropped too when the flaps were lowered, the FGK's did not, they were independent.

The G-6/R2 was indeed an armed fighter-recce, like FR Spits, the only difference between the normal G-6 and the /R2 being the latter having cameras in the rear fuselage, and MW50 booster. If anything, the R2 would be somewhat more draggy because of the camera port, nevertheless the German datasheets give the same performance for both FR and and normal F types, ie. the G-10 (F) and G-10/R2 is also noted with the same performance. Now that I think of it, I don't think there was ever an unarmed 109 PR version, the G-4/R3 comes close to this, where the MG17s were removed for extra oil capacity (the plane was for long range recce with 2x300lit DTs under the wings), but it still retained the hub 20mm cannon.

As for the G-14's larger wing fairings, actually they were technically better than the small teardrops used previously, as their transition of the airflow was smoother. Even then, I don't thing those bulges would make any serious difference, maybe 1-2 kph, given drag data from other planes.
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Offline Bruno

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109 performance notes
« Reply #61 on: November 15, 2005, 01:19:48 PM »
Pyro replied in the Bug thread:

Quote
Originally posted by Pyro
Ok, I'll take a look at changing that.

Offline Karnak

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109 performance notes
« Reply #62 on: November 15, 2005, 02:05:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bruno
Pyro replied in the Bug thread:

Yay!
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline gripen

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109 performance notes
« Reply #63 on: November 15, 2005, 03:06:57 PM »
All performance data in the GL/CE-E dated 13.8.1944 seem to be calculations. The same values in other papers of the same set are marked as "Rechnung".

gripen

Offline Krusty

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109 performance notes
« Reply #64 on: November 15, 2005, 03:41:47 PM »
Emil dropped its ailerons 5 degrees when flaps were extended to the max. I read that in the "Bf109 in action" book, I think from Squadron.

Offline Crumpp

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109 performance notes
« Reply #65 on: November 15, 2005, 04:24:58 PM »
Quote
All performance data in the GL/CE-E dated 13.8.1944 seem to be calculations. The same values in other papers of the same set are marked as "Rechnung".


Hardly matters Gripen.  Facts are the data matches the manufacturers base for guaranteed performance and are listed in the Flugzeug Handbuch.

This whole line of thinking that "calculations" are always optimistic is pure bunk as well.  Aircraft manufacturers tend to be conservative in their estimates not optimistic.

Simple economics.  If you cannot deliver what is promised your customers will buy products elsewhere.

Take the Me-262 for example; here are the calculations vs. flight-tested performance.  You can see that the calculations are the back curve.

Secondly the middle graph has the data points plotted from over 100 test flights.  You can see the wide range of performance exhibited by a given design.

 

 

I have many such calculations on the FW190A that are slower than the flight-tested data.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline gripen

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109 performance notes
« Reply #66 on: November 15, 2005, 04:46:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp

Hardly matters Gripen. Facts are the data matches the manufacturers base for guaranteed performance and are listed in the Flugzeug Handbuch.


Hm... if you have flight tested data for the G-14 or G-6, please bring it in. The Me 262 or Fw 190 have nothing to with this.

If you look same set of papers as that GL/C-E data you can find well over 700 km/h claims (with the DB 605A) for the Bf 109G by Mtt.

gripen

Offline Kurfürst

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109 performance notes
« Reply #67 on: November 15, 2005, 04:58:07 PM »
Cut the crap gripen. These specifications are the official figures for the aircraft, and the manufacturer guaranteed performance to be within 3% of that. It's just plain obvious that you got nerveus that the much hated 109 would get fixed and throw in the 'it's only calculated' BS.

"If you look same set of papers as that GL/C-E data you can find well over 700 km/h claims (with the DB 605A) for the Bf 109G by Mtt."

Show those papers if those exists. I've seen one paper claiming 700kph, and it's very clear about the nature of the curve. It was prepeared by Rechlin, not Mtt, and contains simply estimation of the 109G speed calculated from the 109F with the 605A output. The figure isn't unbeliavable at all, considering it's probably not corrected for compressibility and assumes wheel well doors that were foreseen but did not made into the production Gustav, except a few examples. You made a false story out of that on purpose, 'revealing' da great mtt conspiracy to dismiss the official figures. In any case, 700km/h plus speeds would not be anything extraordinary at altitudes considering the GM-1 booster in some of the 109G. With that, the 605A put out about as much power as the RR Griffon, oh, and btw, we have the Spit XIV in the game that is just the like isn't based on any real life flight test results, 'just' calculations.

Your dishonesty is bothering. You have the G-5/AS speed results yourself. You can compare them to those bad bad calculated figures by Mtt for the same plane, and find how closely their calculations match the actual flight data. You probably already did, just playing your usual distgusting games here.
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Offline Crumpp

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109 performance notes
« Reply #68 on: November 15, 2005, 04:59:51 PM »
Gripen,

Once again this performance is listed in the aircraft operating instructions.

Bf-109's could easily attain 666kph in flight:

http://www.beim-zeugmeister.de/zeugmeister/index.php?id=26&L=1

The calculations on the design are conservative:

http://www.beim-zeugmeister.de/zeugmeister/index.php?id=27&L=1

Your pretty much trolling Gripen.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Crumpp

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109 performance notes
« Reply #69 on: November 15, 2005, 05:03:50 PM »
Quote
I've seen one paper claiming 700kph,


The Bf-109K4 Handbuch list's 710 kph.  It is also listed in:

"Hinweise für Technische Aussenstellen (HTA), Neuerungen Nr. 4"

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline gripen

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109 performance notes
« Reply #70 on: November 15, 2005, 05:17:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kurfürst

Show those papers if those exists. I've seen one paper claiming 700kph, and it's very clear about the nature of the curve.


All you need to do is find a Mtt paper (Datenblatt, errechnete werte) dated 12.5.1942 (among same set as GL/C-E data) and it claims 732 km/h at 7500m (DB 605A, Start- und Notlstg.).

Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp

Bf-109's could easily attain 666kph in flight:

http://www.beim-zeugmeister.de/zeugmeister/index.php?id=26&L=1



That's not Bf 109G-14 nor G-6.

Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp

The Bf-109K4 Handbuch list's 710 kph


That's not Bf 109G-14 nor G-6.

gripen
« Last Edit: November 15, 2005, 05:20:17 PM by gripen »

Offline Crumpp

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109 performance notes
« Reply #71 on: November 15, 2005, 05:50:26 PM »
Quote
That's not Bf 109G-14 nor G-6.


Again Gripen,

The performance is listed in the Flugzeug Handbuch and forms the bases for the 3% variation.

The posted documents simply illustrate Mtt's numbers are based on fact.  Not your silly conspiracy theory.

The flight tested performance listed here:

http://www.beim-zeugmeister.de/zeugmeister/index.php?id=26&L=1

Simply illustrates the point that calculations are generally conservative as shown in Mtt calculated performance of the aircraft flight tested above:

http://www.beim-zeugmeister.de/zeugmeister/index.php?id=27&L=1

The calculations even show less speed for more input horsepower due to the conservative drag figures.

Now about the Bf-109G14 "calculations" which you have yet to show are in fact calculations.

This sheet lists 666kph at FTH on a clean configuration Bf-109G14/U4 weighing 3318Kg.  

The flight test sheet for a DB605AM equipped Bf-109G14/U4 with Gondolawaffen with a weight of 3501Kg is listed as 652kph.

666kph as listed by Mtt is clearly within the attainable performance of the Bf-109G14 in clean configuration.  In fact I would imagine actual flight performance to be generally better than Mtt's listed 666kph.

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: November 15, 2005, 05:53:28 PM by Crumpp »

Offline gripen

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109 performance notes
« Reply #72 on: November 15, 2005, 05:59:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp

The performance is listed in the Flugzeug Handbuch and forms the bases for the 3% variation.


Just post the test data. I'm not interested about the rest.

Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp

The posted documents simply illustrate Mtt's numbers are based on fact.  Not your silly conspiracy theory.


None of the posted documents are tested data on the G-14 or G-6

gripen

Offline Crumpp

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109 performance notes
« Reply #73 on: November 15, 2005, 06:06:14 PM »
Quote
None of the posted documents are tested data on the G-14 or G-6


I certainly am not going to post them for you horde.  You can wonder what happenend and it will be amusing to see your arguments against it.

All the best,


Crumpp

Offline gripen

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109 performance notes
« Reply #74 on: November 15, 2005, 06:12:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
I certainly am not going to post them for you horde.  You can wonder what happenend and it will be amusing to see your arguments against it.


My arguments against what? I can't follow your logic here.

gripen