Author Topic: Ki-100  (Read 5560 times)

Offline Karnak

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Ki-100
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2005, 07:01:33 PM »
Ki-100 would be nice and I guess relatively easy to do when the Ki-61-I-Tei gets updated as it would reuse much of the Ki-61's model.

I'd rather see the Ki-61-I-Ko or Ki-61-I-Otsu though.

For new Japanese fighters I'd really like to see the Ki-43-I-Hei or Ki-43-II-Ko, Ki-44-II-Otsu and J2M3a Raiden.
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Offline Debonair

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Ki-100
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2005, 07:12:45 PM »
According to the Joe Baugher web site:
By the time that production was suspended, 374 Model 2s had been built, but 30 of these were destroyed on the ground prior to delivery and 275 were built without engines.
and
A total of 396 Ki-100s were built, including 275 Ki-61-II conversions, 118 Ki-100-Ib production aircraft built from scratch, and three Ki-100-II prototypes.

If you rely on Joe Baugher's, I guess it is hard to exactly differentiate Ki.61-II production numbers from Ki.100 production numbers.  It is as easy to say Ki.100 wins 396-99 as it is Ki.61-II wins 374-118, or it is close, Ki.100 in a squeaker 118-99 with 274 shared production victories.

Offline Debonair

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Ki-100
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2005, 07:18:04 PM »
Here is a photo comaprison of Ia & Ib Ki.100




Offline Widewing

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Ki-100
« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2005, 12:32:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Slash27

And since I have you here WW, what was the reasons for its lack-luster performance? Was it the actual design of the aircraft or quality issues with engines and such?


Basically, the Ki-100 was terribly slow when compared to what it had to compete with.

Let's see how it compares to a P-40L of 1942.

Speed
P-40L: 370 mph at 20k
Ki-100: 360 mph at 19.8k

Sea level speed
P-40L: 312 mph
Ki-100: 307 mph

Climb, initial from sea level
P-40L: 3,300 fpm
Ki-100: 3,200 fpm

Time to climb
P-40L: 5.9 minutes to 15k
Ki-100: 6.6 minutes to 16.4k

Very similar performance, except that the P-40L entered service in 1942 and the Ki-100 in 1945.

Facing the Ki-100 was the F6F-5, F4U-1D, F4U-4, P-51D and P-47N.

The slowest of these is the F6F-5, which when tested by TAIC attained 409 mph at 21,600 feet (that's 6 mph less than Grumman claimed). At 20k, the Ki-100 can manage only 349 mph, at 21.6k it will be slower still.

The other American fighters were faster yet. How would the Ki-100 hope to compete? Consider that the A6M5 easily out-climbed the Ki-100 and could turn circles around it, the only advantage of the Ki-100 was in speed, and that advantage was less than 20 mph. By 1945, the Zero was hopelessly out of date. Granted, the Ki-100 was easy to fly, meaning low-time pilots could fly it without difficulty. Handling was excellent, but like the Ki-61, its initial and sustained rate of roll was barely average, degrading from 240 mph on up. Acceleration was poor, especially by late-war standards.

In short, the Ki-100 was a solid fighter for 1942, but by 1945 it was completely out-classed. It could and did score victories. But, so did the Zero.

As to sources, I'd avoid most of the books written by pulp factory authors like Gunston. Joe Baugher uses Francillon as a source and Francillon published more fiction than Stephen King...

Indeed, the utter hogwash of Ki-100s matching the P-51D and P-47N is rediculous in the extreme. That claim of 14 F6Fs shot down for no loss was a complete frabrication, unsupported by Navy records. Yet, author after author repeats this nonsense over and over.

The battle these idiots are referring to occured on July 25th, 1945 over Yokaichi Airfield. 18 Ki-100s bounced a group of 10 Hellcats. The Japanese were at 12,000 feet, the F6Fs were down around 5,000 feet, strafing and rocketing the base. In the ensuing fight, two F6Fs were lost. One in a collision with Captain Tsutae Obara. Both pilots were killed. Ensign Herbert Law's engine was hit by ground fire, causing the windscreen to obscured by engine oil. Unable to see, he evaded long enough to crash-land his Hellcat. IJAAF Warrant Officer Shin Ikuta was shot down and killed by the F6Fs. Low on gas and ammo, the remaining 8 Hellcats returned to their carrier. Japanese pilots claimed 12 F6Fs destroyed. Navy pilots claimed 8 Japanese aircraft shot down or destroyed on the ground. Actual losses were 2 lost and 2 damaged for the Americans. Japanese losses were 2 lost and 3 damaged, one of which crash-landed on Yokaichi field. Several Japanese aircraft were left burning on the field resulting from the Hellcats strafing. Gun camera film revealed that 3 utility aircraft had been set ablaze by the F6Fs, and several more unidentified aircraft were damaged to some extent.

Over time, this engagement has been embellished to inflate the Japanese claims and ignore the fact that two Ki-100s went down and another shot-up Ki-100 was wrecked in a forced landing.

In reality, the Japanese force, nearly twice as large as the American force, attacked with the advantage of altitude. Despite being handed a significant disadvanage, the Navy pilots scored as well or better than the Japanese and were able to disengage at will.

Virtually anything written by Henry Sakaida can be trusted to be generally correct. Watanabe is also reasonably reliable, with Kuroe, Jobo and Izawa somewhat less so. Some of these authors accept Japanese claims on face value, therefore it is essential to compare US records to get an accurate picture. However, all the the above can be relied upon to accurately report Japanese losses. Look for english translations as much of the material by the above authors was published in the Japanese language.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Krusty

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Ki-100
« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2005, 12:50:17 AM »
"Speed
P-40L: 370 mph at 20k
Ki-100: 360 mph at 19.8k"

(and other comments)

Considering that the Ki100 saw its first flight (or is that first action?) in Feb 1945, that's far inferior to everything else [it would come up against] in the air.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2005, 12:53:09 AM by Krusty »

Offline Karnak

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Ki-100
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2005, 12:53:37 AM »
That seems to match my impressions of the Ki-100 pretty well Widewing.  The only real strong point I have heard for it is that the engine was reliable at a time when most Japanese engines were anything but reliable.  That alone could endear it in the minds of it's pilots I'd think, even if a working Ki-84 would utterly dominate it.
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storch

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Ki-100
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2005, 06:32:44 AM »
regardless of the facts the japanese planeset needs rounding out.  the Ki100 would be welcome and used in the CT as well as in the SEA.

Offline Magoo

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Ki-100
« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2005, 08:10:16 AM »
The Ki43 Hayabusha (Oscar) is the most historically significant Japanese plane not in the plane set. It gets my vote for the next Japanese plane to be added. But hey, I'll fly the Ki100 if they add it. I like the Ki61 we have now and fly it a few times a month with varied success.

We are likely going to be waiting for quite a while to get any of this. The plan, I believe, is to bring all the current models up to AHII standards before attempting any new models. Of course this gives us plenty of time to make our wishes known:D

Magoo
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Offline Wofat

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Re: Ki-100
« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2012, 01:44:24 PM »
After ki-43 of course the Ki-100 (Ki-100 I-Otsu please) be a great addition.  In hand of good pilot the Ki-100 would keep most any opponent on toes.  Ample web info suggests Japan pilot feel it was better than ki-84.

Yay Ki-100!  :aok

EDIT:
Quote
...utter hogwash of Ki-100s matching the P-51D and P-47N is rediculous in the extreme.

Yes much debate over Ki-100 actual performance.  There data both way.  Some common data suggest:

Quote
...the Nakajima only had the advantage of top level speed and dive rate up to 496 mph (the Ki100 could then keep diving another 30+ mph faster, however) due to it's streamlined design but the Kawasaki was stronger and more stable at terminal speeds (the Ki 84 also had more trouble with aerobatics especially at high speed than the Ki 100 with it's lighter controls as well as better climbing turns).

This may be closest true statement:
Quote
Maybe best isn't the word. Surprisingly effective might be the right phrase. On paper it doesn't shine, but in the air is where it counts.


« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 02:45:06 PM by Wofat »

Offline Shuffler

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Re: Ki-100
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2012, 03:19:08 PM »
More fuel for the disco inferno. :D
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Offline HighTone

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Re: Ki-100
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2012, 05:01:56 PM »
All we have 67 years after the fact is data to compare.

Generally the pilots memories or thoughts are not trusted due to the time that has elapsed and sometimes a lack of context to put those memories in.

Generally the Japanese and Russian records are hard to get, either due to the way they were kept or tallied or because of the Cold War, so there numbers cant be trusted.

Generally we don't have two flyable planes today that we could fly to compare. Even if we did that wouldn't be a true account of how that A/C preformed in the field during WW2.



So that leaves us with the United States numbers and A/C test that were done by the Allies after the war.

Anyone going against the Uniteds States "Big Blue Blanket" or AAF in 1945 isn't going to have great K/D ratio, and that's no matter how good the plane is.

And again the testing the Allies did after the war, still isn't going to produce the exact results that the manufacturing country got on the battle field.


Notice above I used a lot of "generally", because I know these conclusions weren't always the case.

So that brings me back to the 67 years latter part, all we have is stats. 

We need something to compare right?

I feel the most overrated stat that we use/quote in our game (Aces High) when it comes to the quality of an A/C, is its absolute top speed at Alt stat.


Personally I will take a good turn rate and a respectable climb rate over absolute top speed anyday.

+1 for the Ki-100, the Ki-61-Hei, all the Ki-43's, Ki-44, J2M3a  :joystick:

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Offline Slade

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Re: Ki-100
« Reply #41 on: April 08, 2012, 08:23:54 AM »
+1 for the Ki-100
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