P-51D .50 cal problems

[Sable]

I fly the P-51D fairly often, and anytime I take a good stabilized shot (i.e. bouncing a target that is flying straight and level) a two second burst from 400-200 yards (my convergence is set to 325 for all 3 pairs) as I close on them will completely destroy any fighter.  I see the same results even in the 4 gun P-51B.  Occasionally in a situation like this I won't get the kill on the first pass, and it's always because I didn't hold the pipper steady on the target.  

One thing that I noticed was causing me a lot of problems was that I use a twisty stick and would often find myself skidding or slipping with the rudder while shooting - I increased the dead band on the rudder axis and made the rudder progression much more gradual (so I could still get full rudder throw, but would only get a little for the first part of the travel).  This seems to have helped a lot - besides this, I just try and make a concious effort to stablize the airplane and get off the rudder before I shoot when I have the chance (of course this applies more to bouncing airplanes then deflection shots on a target you are turning after).

[Max]

It's a given that the 50 cals have been dialed back since AH2 rolled out. I once swore that the 50's on the AH1 FM2 were far deadlier than any other 50 cal plane loadout.

Shane raised the issue of convergence (or lack of mentioning the topic) and in that respect I have a question I've never put forth. Here goes:

If a P51D is configured with 6 50's, all set to d650, a burst of ammo will all converge 650 yards out...assuming straight and level flight...right? The same scenerio using d325 will have all ammo converging at 325 yards...and at 650 they will pattern out to the opposite location of the gun mount positions...right?

It seems logical to assume that using the d650 convergence would result in the greatest concentration of firepower at any target between you and 650 yards out. Guys like Levi who NEVER miss anything can afford to set convergence to the mainstream setting of 250 - 350, whereas dweebs like me who land maybe 10% of their shots would be better off with the d650 convergence...no? If not, why?

DmdMax

[Max]

Originally posted by Sable
I increased the dead band on the rudder axis and made the rudder progression much more gradual (so I could still get full rudder throw, but would only get a little for the first part of the travel).  

Sable can you describe the rudder axis scaling from left to right on the slider window? How much deadband do you use...on a level of 1 to 10

DmdMax

[Grendel]

Originally posted by EagleEyes
Not sure how more concentrated you can get when your 200 behind a 109 and see hits all over the plane.  

All over the plane? That's not concentrated, then. Our of convergence, maybe wavering aim. Most of the bullets are missing the target, as you was shooting them in a large cloud around the target.  You need to land the bullets _concentrated_ into a single location to make them really count, instead spraying all over the target and not making critical failure into a single component.

[Sable]

Think of the path of rounds from each of your guns as a cone, rather then a beam (this is due to the random dispersion caused by imperfections in the gun, the bullet, and the mount).  By the time the cones converge at 650 yards, their diameter is bigger then the target airplane, and a lot of the rounds are missing.  And if you shoot at a target at 200 yards, now your cones are much narrower and they are passing to the sides of the targets fueselage (assuming your aim is right on) and only a few of the wilder rounds are striking the fueselage and a few are hitting the wings.  In this case you aren't getting a lethal concentration of hits at any range.  Now if you use a shorter convergence like 200-300yards or so when you fire at your convergence you are getting a much higher concentration of strikes on the target - but as you move past your convergence you rapidly lose that concentration due to the double effect of the diverging paths of your rounds, and the increasing dispersion.  I find that 325 yards seems to work best for me in the US planes - I open fire at 400 yards normally, and 600 for short bursst on a target I'm pursuing and trying to get to turn.

[Sable]

Originally posted by DMax
Sable can you describe the rudder axis scaling from left to right on the slider window? How much deadband do you use...on a level of 1 to 10

DmdMax

I'll look up my settings when I get home tonight.

[Clifra Jones]

DMax, another point on convergence. MGs are strictly a kinetic energy weapon. The longer the time-of-flight the lower the kinetic energy the projectile has. Therefor hitting a target at d600 will produce less damage per projectile then hitting a target at d300.

[Max]

Good point Clifra. Let me restate my original question another way ---

Two P51D's...1st one has convergence set to d300, 2nd one has convergence set to d640. Each one opens fire on a target at 400 yrds in the same situation...which convergence setting does more damage to the target?

DmdMax

[lasersailor184]

The Fifties are at the damage level they should be.


However, the damage models aren't.  Currently, all the control lines INSIDE of the aircraft are not modeled.


I.E. A good shot on a wing has a good possibility of severing control lines to the ailerion, not counting any structural damage.  

So if you get a good shot on a wing, there's a good chance that the plane would lose maneuverability.


Or if you hit the tail section.  There's good possibilities that you could take out Rudder AND Elevator controls.

[PK1Mw]

Now wait, .50s themselves are not undermodeled. However I do think that there is something wrong with the ponies .50s tho. Now I know "all .50s are the same", but I'm callin' BS. I by no means have problems getting kills in a pony, but the guns definitely seem weaker than an F6 and F4. Hell they seem weaker than an FM2. I'm not the only one who has noticed this either. But When I brought this topic up before, I got an answer, that I don't know if it's true or not.  Supposedly it has to do with the way the guns are mounted on the plane? Anyone have any knowledge of this? K, you might know.

[Wolfala]

Originally posted by EagleEyes
I dont know if its just me and my squaddies, but ive noticed that the P-51D's .50 cals seems not to be doing the damage it should be.  Today i flew with a squaddie (Fish31st) and we both would hammer planes at very close range (300 or less) and get multiple hits and they planes just kept on flying.  Then they would take 1 shot at us and we'd be dead.  I know some of you smartazz's will say we need to aim better and all but thats not it.  Ive damaged a plane more with a spitfires .303s then i have with the P-51D's .50 cals.  Has anyone else noticed this or are we (31st bomber barons) just imagining it?

<>
Egle31

1 word - P-47. And aim better.

[Iceman24]

IMO the .50 cals and all MG's are undermoddled, well maybe not .303's, those are ok... But if anyone has ever shot a .50 cal or seen 1 in action they would know that a 1/2 second burst placed right is plenty to take out anything, I generally set my wing mounted MG's 300-350 depending on plane. I have emptied my entire load of .50 cals into bombers and not have them do anything but make an engine smoke, somethings up there. About 2 years ago we were playing a minor league football game in against an Army team that was put together in Ft. Hood, TX. After the game we got to watch some cool demos. ( we won the game too ) I got to see  a Barret .50 cal sniper rifle  shoot at a 5' thick bricked wall that was about 10' high, the bullet go's right through the wall, leaving a good 1-2' exit hole,  and the shooter was a good 2,000 yards away... I have also seen an automatic .50 cal ontop of a tank open up on that same wall, and in about 10-20 seconds there was no wall... On the same note the 20mm needs to be upped as well, a 20mm has an explosive in it, almost equal to a hand grenade, its funny when I hit a plane with 10 ea 20mm's and its still flyin... I know modern day 20mm's and .50cals will be better and more accurate, but a 20mm will make about a 3-5' exit hole on a Bradly tank, I know a Bradly tank doesnt have allot of armour, but it definately has more than the AC in AH2.

[Simaril]

Iceman, were those 20mm's anti air; he, or anti armor? I'm no gun guy, but there are huge differences between rounds with nominally the same "caliber".



Eagel, be aware of the "hit box" concept too. Imagine the target is made up of interconnected discrete boxes, rather than beign just "a plane". I understand that AH models damage by tracking injury to aircraft box by box; the damage shows up when the total for a given "hit box" crosses a threshold. Above that, pieces fly off; below it, no damage is seen. (I'm unclear bout whether partail damage affects G-load tolerance, etc, but I dont think it does.)

So again, the important thing is to concentrate the fire. If you fill every hit box up to its brim with damage but never cross teh threshold, the plane looks untouched -- so theoretically you could pour A LOT of 50s into a buff and see nothing.


To answer your question, I have seen no change or problem with the 50s in ponies or any other ride. Youre comment about getting hits "all over" the target pretty clearly suggests where the problem came from in that encounter.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by 1K3
50 cals will only set the B24s on fire

4x .50 cals will easily remove any part on a bomber.



ack-ack

[Iceman24]

Iceman, were those 20mm's anti air; he, or anti armor? I'm no gun guy, but there are huge differences between rounds with nominally the same "caliber".

I have no clue, they were shooting it off of some type of troop transport, I can't remember what they called it but they were firing at an older Bradly tank / vehicle and a 5' thick wall. Maybe there was something "special" to them, I'm not sure, but can tell u this, those 20mm's they were shooting were awesome, its a real deep throaty sound when fired and when it hit that tank at the end of the range... ohh man, all u see is bright sparks fly out from any opening in the tank from 1 shot, anything inside would be toast for sure... for all I know they could have been depleted uranium rounds but they were awesome...

Just seems to me that there is a HUGE gap in damage between a 20mm and a 30mm, a 20mm in AH2 seems a underpowered whereas a 30mm will blow anything up