t34 vs tiger

[outbreak]

Get behind a Tiger and fire right at that Tank on the back you will have him real quick, Works Extremely well in an Osti, Took me about 20 Shots in an osti to a Tigers Rear end and BOOM.

[ATA]

Originally posted by Bodhi
That is such an incorrect statement it is not funny.  Tiger's were killed on numerous occasions by T-34-41's and T-34-41imps

Do a little research of actual combat reports instead of reading penetration charts before you claim something.

Tigers were greatly outnumbered by t34 i believe

[Larry]

Originally posted by 1K3
Russian tank (T-34-76) in AH can't stand against late war 1944-45 Panzer IV Hs and Tigers.  tank matchups would be very different if we have AH T-34 go up against 1942-43 Panzer IIIs and IVs.

Yep to bad the pnzr and tiger we have were built in '42 and '43-'44 and the T34 was built from '40-'45 looks like the russians thought it was good enough for the whole war, but then again WW2 tank battles almost always happened within 1000m and not the 5K+ that happens in AH.
 
pnzrIVH  4/1943-7/1944  3,774

pnzrVIE(Tiger1) 8/1942-8/1944: 1,350
7/1942-8/1944: 1,354
1943 - 649

T34/76  1940-45: 35,120
1943 - 15,529

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Larry
Yep to bad the pnzr and tiger we have were built in '42 and '43-'44 and the T34 was built from '40-'45 looks like the russians thought it was good enough for the whole war, but then again WW2 tank battles almost always happened within 1000m and not the 5K+ that happens in AH.
 
pnzrIVH  4/1943-7/1944  3,774

pnzrVIE(Tiger1) 8/1942-8/1944: 1,350
7/1942-8/1944: 1,354
1943 - 649

T34/76  1940-45: 35,120
1943 - 15,529

The T-34 we have was produced in 1943 at the tail end of T-34/76 production versions as I understand it.  It was produced through 1945, but not as the main anti-tank version of the T-34, the T-34/85 took that role.  Our T-34/76 is for all practical purposes identical to a 1941 T-34/76.

Your bald faced lie that the T-34 we have was what the Russians thought was good enough for the entire war boggles the mind.  The T-34/85 which entered production in 1943 kind of kills that claim, after all why interupt production to try to get a better gun and turret if you think what you have is just fine.


As to hitting the Tiger in the rear with the T-34/76 in AH, well, that has no effect.  I have hit the offline Tiger from point blank in the rear with 50+ AP rounds and not one bit of damage ocurred.

[Larry]

Originally posted by Karnak
Your bald faced lie that the T-34 we have was what the Russians thought was good enough for the entire war boggles the mind.  The T-34/85 which entered production in 1943 kind of kills that claim, after all why interupt production to try to get a better gun and turret if you think what you have is just fine.

LoL lie thats funny. So then why did they keep it in production if it wasnt good enough? And for the not being able to kill a tiger from behind think HTC could do more for that then me, so best thing to do is email them about it, but with ToD if it is fixed dont count on it anytime soon.

[Karnak]

Probably because 76mm is good enough for infantry support and killing most German tanks or vehicles?

You are the one that made the claim that the Russians thought 76mm was good enough.  If that is so, explain why they were so keen to get the 85mm gun on the T-34 and into action.

[Larry]

Mabey bucause they wanted to have something better jsut like why the germans made tigers and panthers. Why settle with good when you can have great. And if they didnt think it was good enough then they would have stoped making /76 and jsut made the /85

[Meyer]

Actually, the T34/85 didnt't enter in producion until 1944.  first action it saw was  in the spring of the same year.

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Karnak
The T-34 we have was produced in 1943 at the tail end of T-34/76 production versions as I understand it.  It was produced through 1945, but not as the main anti-tank version of the T-34, the T-34/85 took that role.  Our T-34/76 is for all practical purposes identical to a 1941 T-34/76.

[/B]

Yeah, actually many people convinently forget how much hardship the russians had producing some decent equipment up the 2nd half of the gpw. Their industry took a serious blow in 1941-42, and it took a lot to recover, until then they produced all POS they could, a very large percantage of tank production until 1943/44 were almost completely useless light tankettes... they relied on those death traps to a large scale even at kursk. To those guys in those T-40s and T-60s, even the PzIII was something f. scary.

As to hitting the Tiger in the rear with the T-34/76 in AH, well, that has no effect.  I have hit the offline Tiger from point blank in the rear with 50+ AP rounds and not one bit of damage ocurred. [/B]

Something I'd expect given the live fire trials I've seen for the Tiger I. At it's time, it was much more scary than the Tiger II in a later era, a lot fewer guns could successfully battle it. One live fire trials was done against a Tiger captured in NA, results - with a 75mm Sherman gun - as I recall were that the only conditions of penetrating the side plate was less than 100 yards range, 18 degree angle of impact from the surface (near vertical impact required). Pretty tough. Your T-34 example vs. the turret is even worser given it's just as thick, plus it's curved making a good angle very unlikely, and add to that the Soviet AP rounds were quite a lot worser than German or Allied ones, lacking an armor-piercing cap...

Got a nice page from the 'Tigerfibel' recalling a Tiger tank being hit zillion times by Soviet fire, many parts damaged, and still rolled some 60km on it's own power...

Oh, and the T-34/85 did not enter production until Dec 15 1943. That's 1944 in my book. Same time as the Tiger II btw.

[Karnak]

I wasn't shooting the Tiger's turret.  That armor is much too think.  I was shooting the rear of the engine compartment.

Tiger II can't be compared to the T-34/85.  The Tiger II was produced in very low numbers and had huge mechanical reliability issues due to overstessingthe engine and drive system.

[Bruno]

Probably because 76mm is good enough for infantry support and killing most German tanks or vehicles?

Allied 76.2mm had a 'shatter gap' problem. Rounds with too high an impact velocity would sometimes fail even though their penetration capability was (theoretically) more than adequate.

This was a problem with the British 2 pounder in the desert, and would have decreased the effectiveness of U.S. 76mm and 3" guns against Tigers, Panthers and other vehicles with armor thickness above 70 mm.

The nose of US armor-piercing ammunition of the period was 'soft' (brittle?). When these projectiles impacted armor which matched or exceeded the projectile diameter at a certain spread of velocities, the projectile would shatter and fail.

For the a 76mm APCBC M62 the shell would shatter and fail between 50 meters and 900 meters. These ammunition deficiencies proved that Ordnance tests claiming the 76 mm gun could penetrate a Tiger I's upper front hull to 2,000 yards (1,800 meters) were sadly incorrect.

Here's one story of 2 Tigers being engaged by a mix of Soviet T34/76 and US lend lease Shermans:

The 13.(Tiger) Kompanie, of Panzer Regiment Großdeutschland, reported on the armor protection of the Tiger: "During a scouting patrol two Tigers encountered about 20 Russian tanks on their front, while additional Russian tanks attacked from behind. A battle developed in which the armor and weapons of the Tiger were extraordinarily successful. Both Tigers were hit (mainly by 76.2 mm armor-piercing shells) 10 or more times at ranges from 500 to 1,000 meters. The armor held up all around. Not a single round penetrated through the armor. Also hits in the running gear, in which the suspension arms were torn away, did not immobilize the Tiger. While 76.2 mm anti-tank shells continuously struck outside the armor, on the inside, undisturbed, the commander, gunner, and loader selected targets, aimed, and fired. The end result was 10 enemy tanks knocked out by two Tigers within 15 minutes" (JENTZ, Thomas L.; Germany's TIGER Tanks - Tiger I and II: Combat Tactics; op. cit.).

Here's an image of a Panther after being struck by multiple 76.2 mm rounds:



Die Tiger Fibel

One thing as well, if the first round doesn't penetrate, chances are none of the following rounds will. Firing from the same range, into the same spot, will not 'wear a whole' in armor. If you stay in one spot firing over and over then get killed thats not the AHs gv modeling, that's your own stupidity. The facts are that there is a lot of 'randomness' when it comes to 'knocking out' mbts. More so then you see in AH. If you go head-to-head vs. a Tiger in a T-34/76 you will die and that's all you need to know.

[Kurfürst]

The turret/hull sides/rear all the same thickness, 80-82mm on the Tiger. The only thin place is the lower hull sides, 60mm, but these are 90% covered why the overlapped roadwheels, making it a pretty hard shot.

I merely compared the T/85 and T2 on that they came at the same timescale, ie. the T/76 was contemporary to the T1, the T/85's was the T2. But I disagree about the 'huge' mechanical issues, granted such large vehicle have more stress on the drive than a smaller one, but from what I've read on actual Tiger II operations, they seldom had major problems with that, and the cross-country capabilities of both big cats was surprisingly good.

[Karnak]

No doubt that the Tiger was a vastly more lethal tank than the T-34.

The Tiger I's complete immunity to the T-34/76 in AH does make the T-34 rather pointless because in nearly any assult you will encounter Tigers defending.

The Tiger I would still hold a marked edge over the T-34/85, but the T-34/85 would at least be a viable tank to use.  As it is there only tank that is really usable as a free tank is the Panzer IV H.  It may be slower than the T-34 and have somewhat weaker armor, but at least it has a usable gun.

[Bodhi]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
The turret/hull sides/rear all the same thickness, 80-82mm on the Tiger. The only thin place is the lower hull sides, 60mm, but these are 90% covered why the overlapped roadwheels, making it a pretty hard shot.
 

Look at your information again.

[Urchin]

Back when I played I posted several times about this... the T-34 is pretty useless against a Tiger.  

IIRC (and you should be able to look it up) it is actually possible to kill a Tiger in a T-34.  

The Tiger has an oddly shaped turret, kind of pentagonal or hexagonal.  Anyway, it definately has "slabs" on the turret... 1 slab makes up the left side of the turret, 1 slab makes up the right side, and 2 slabs make up the rear.  If you shoot the exact same slab 3 times at exactly a 90 degree angle (you'll know if you aren't, because the rounds will bounce off) you can disable the turret.  A random number of shots to the same slab later and the tank will blow up.  IIRC, it was between 5 and 11 shots after the turret was disabled.  

Anyway, do a search by my name and T-34, going back a year or two... it'll be there in more detail.