Question to HTC

[TDeacon]

JAWS2003,

You are getting a bit carried away here; this is a very minor issue:

P-51b is only 1 plane, and not that popular of a plane at that, due to its modest firepower.

The Malcolm canopy doesn't affect forward view, which is what is most important.  True that its side views are more convenient, but this is not critical if you use the move keys (I used to fly the Zeke a lot, and I had no problem whatsoever with its "birdcage" canopy).  The main reasons HTC switched to the Malcolm are probably that (a) it looks cool, and (b) it is not atypical for the ETO (TOD).  

When you are talking about "fair", I assume you have recently been shot down by a P-51b?  If so, you would have died just the same had it been equipped with the original canopy.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Karnak
Good question.

Because both versions were in production in 1944.....

My regards,

Widewing

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Widewing
Because both versions were in production in 1944.....

That doesn't answer the question unless years are the smallest time units we can work with.

The Malcolm Hood was not available on the earlier P-51Bs (and apparently never available on P-51Bs in the Pacific). This means that in the time frame the P-51B is likely to be used (excluding the flay whatever you want MA) is to cover the period prior to the P-51D's introduction.  After the P-51D is introduced it will almost always be used.  So having a P-51B that is only correct for the time period after the introduction of the P-51D doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

In fact it is very much like having the Bf109G-6 equipped with a Erla Haube.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by JAWS2003
The one they made is not the main version. The main version of P51B had a BAD VISIBILITY all around. That version should have been made. The way it is now it has an advantage over it's historical enemies that the majority of it's pilots DID NOT HAVE! Sorry to say it, but his does not look like balance to me, it looks more like bias.

Did you fly the previous P-51B version? If you did, you would know that forward visibility was pretty good, better than any 109.

Another fact; by summer of 1944, the MAJORITY of 8th AF P-51B/C aircraft had been retro-fitted with the Malcolm hood. P-51Cs were rolling off the Dallas plant at the same time P-51Ds were being built in California.

Could HTC provide both canopy versions of the early P-51B/C fighters? Sure, but their resources are focused on TOD right now. Besides, the P-51B as configured is correct for May 1944 on.

If you want to fly a 1944 vintage 109 with the Erla Haube canopy, fly the G-14. The current 109G-6 predates this.

Besides, everything we see in the plane-set provides strong clues as to how TOD will utilize aircraft.

Mid to late 1943 will likely pit the P-47D-11 and P-38J against the 109G-6 and 190A-8. They may even drop in the P-38G (substitute for better performing P-38H).

There's been an significant amount of crying about the 190 and 109 forward cockpit visibility. Indeed, forward visibility is terrible, but I have compared screen shots to actual photos and the current graphics are about as close to perfect as one could expect. German designers used massively thick windscreen uprights. There have been some minor problems with some aircraft that were later corrected by HTC, such as the Ki-84, FW 190 and P-38G. However, they needed to see adequate photographic evidence to support a change. So, those of you who are unhappy about the current cockpit frames, provide something besides your opinion and HTC will change them if the evidence supports a change.

My regards,

Widewing

[JAWS2003]

I'm happy with the current forward view. I like the AH FW-190 forward view, My main game is Forgotten Battles (with Paciffic Fighters and all that). That game has the worst forward view for FW-190, but in that game the plane itself is a true killer, Just how it was: "every inch a fighter".
 But  is not the forward view I was talking about. Is the rear view that was crappy in the 51B.
 I'll rest my case now.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Karnak
That doesn't answer the question unless years are the smallest time units we can work with.

The Malcolm Hood was not available on the earlier P-51Bs (and apparently never available on P-51Bs in the Pacific). This means that in the time frame the P-51B is likely to be used (excluding the flay whatever you want MA) is to cover the period prior to the P-51D's introduction.  After the P-51D is introduced it will almost always be used.  So having a P-51B that is only correct for the time period after the introduction of the P-51D doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

In fact it is very much like having the Bf109G-6 equipped with a Erla Haube.

Malcolm hoods were a never factory item. They were installed initially at the Squadron and Group level, and later at depot level. I have photos of P-51s with Malcolm hoods dating to early April, 1944.

You won't have to worry about Malcolm hoods in the Pacific as no P-51Bs served in the PTO or SWPA. P-51As and later, P-51B/Cs served in the CBI. However, as the Malcolm hood was British made, you would not find them in the CBI. In fact, I don't recall seeing any on MTO fighters either.

At the Dallas plant, the P-51C remained in production until well after D models began being delivered. These were contemporaries and were being delivered to fighter squadrons thru mid-summer 1944. For TOD, the Malcolm hood is a legitimate configuration, as long as the set-up is post 1943.

Believe me, with or without the Malcolm hood, the P-51B will dominate contemporary Luftwaffe fighters in TOD scenarios. It's that good. With or without the Erla Haube canopy, the G-6 is out-classed by the P-51B. Especially at 25,000 feet or higher where the P-51B is much, much faster, better climbing and better handling. Which is why I do not expect the G-6 to be pitted against the P-51B very often, but against the P-47D-11 and pre-1944 P-38s.

If HTC wanted to include a P-51C with the standard canopy, no one would object. However, that's unlikely in the short term, so people will just have to accept things as they exist.

My regards,

Widewing

[storch]

widewing are you the same person who's work is often seen in aviation periodicals?

[Widewing]

Originally posted by storch
widewing are you the same person who's work is often seen in aviation periodicals?

I wonder if you may be thinking of Warren Bodie. Warren and I have co-written several articles for Flight Journal. I have had work published in a few other magazines, some in overseas publications such as Air Power International. Warren has had far more work published in magazines than I have. He was writing full time since the early 1990s after he retired from Lockheed (he was member of the "Skunk Works"). Some of his many books include the "Bible" on the P-38 and an equally massive work on the P-47. Warren co-wrote with Jeff Ethell for a few years, although most of the actual work was done by Warren as Ethell had lots of irons in various fires.

I borrowed the name of Warren's publishing house (Widewing Publications) for my user name in Aces High. Widewing was the Allied code name for 8th Air Force Fighter Command (Gen. Kepner commanding).

One day I'll compile my many hours of pilot interviews (most recorded on tape). I have about 5 hours with Bob Johnson (27 kills), some of which I posted to this BBS back in 2001.

My regards,

Widewing

[storch]

Thank you for your reply. that must be it.  I suscribe to both Flight Journal and Air & Space both of which have articles by Mr. Bodie regularly.

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Guppy35
And the 1943 G6 apparently didn't use the Erla Haube, that came later.  IUt's kind of like the Spit V guys wanting to have the better version from 43.  But the one we got is from 41 so we deal with it.

Nope, wrong. The Erla Haube was introduced in the automn of 1943, shortly after the armored glass headrest was introduced in the summer of 1943. Between that time, there were kind of an 'interim type', the old framed canopy, but with a transparent rear armor. I guess this would be nice to be seen on G-6s, since G-6s didn't become dominant until the 2nd half of 1943 anyway.

So quite a few G-6s were produced with the Erla Habue in `43 already, Radinger Otto has pictures taken in the final assembly halls of WNF (Wieneneustadt) which have dozens of G-6s recieving the final touches, and yes, all those have the Erla hood - and Flettner tabs for the ailerons. Apart from that, it isn't hard to track down photographs of G-6s with the Erla, the tough part is to find out when they were taken, but even then, there are a quite a few other pics of 1943 G-6s with the Erla Hood, or with the framed canopy but armor glass instead of the steel headrest.

[elkaskone]

In a German Wochenschau from October 1943  "Die Deutsche Wochenschau" you can see "Erla Hauben"!

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
Nope, wrong. The Erla Haube was introduced in the automn of 1943, shortly after the armored glass headrest was introduced in the summer of 1943. Between that time, there were kind of an 'interim type', the old framed canopy, but with a transparent rear armor. I guess this would be nice to be seen on G-6s, since G-6s didn't become dominant until the 2nd half of 1943 anyway.

So quite a few G-6s were produced with the Erla Habue in `43 already, Radinger Otto has pictures taken in the final assembly halls of WNF (Wieneneustadt) which have dozens of G-6s recieving the final touches, and yes, all those have the Erla hood - and Flettner tabs for the ailerons. Apart from that, it isn't hard to track down photographs of G-6s with the Erla, the tough part is to find out when they were taken, but even then, there are a quite a few other pics of 1943 G-6s with the Erla Hood, or with the framed canopy but armor glass instead of the steel headrest.

And the G6 in AH has the old type canopy with the glass armor correct?  And the Erla Habue didn't arrive until the Fall of 43 according to you.  

So HTC took the time to model the G's with all three canopy types.  G2 with the old style armor and early canopy.  G6 with glass armor and older canopy and the G14 with the Erla Habue.  

Sure seems nice they took the time to do that.  The Mustang drivers got screwed.  They couldn't have both the early style 51 canopy to go with the Malcom on the B model.  Just think, they could have done the B with the early style, done a C with the Malcom (no dif then the B but from the Dallas plant) and the D.  Probably gonna have the Mustang fanatics screaming for a Dallas built K model with the Aeroproducts propeller and the true view canopy that the Dallas 51s had that was not the same as the D canopy coming from the Inglewood plant.

It's that HTC Allied conspiracy at work again.  Can't even get the correct canopies on the 51s for heavens sake!  Taking too much time to model all the 109 canopy types but no go for the 51......(walks away grumbling about how unfair HTC is towards 51 drivers...)

[Guppy35]

I keep looking and keep finding photos of 43 G6s with the regular canopies.  Barkhorn's G6 from late November 43.  Regular Canopy.  Bartel's G6 from November 43, regular canopy.  Graf's G6 from September 43, regular canopy.  Langers G6 from October 43, regular canopy.  Hartmann's G6 from October 43, regular canopy.

All these Aces with regular canopies on their G6s from very late 43.  

Harder's G6 from February 44, regular canopy.  Hackl's G6 from February 44, regular canopy.  Schilling's G6 from February 44, regular canopy......well you get the point

Kinda think HTC made a good call

[Squire]

"IF P-51 B got the Malcolm Hood, why didn't BF 109 G6 get the Erla Haube?"

Because AH is a flight sim, not a 9 year old girls birthday party where the parents have to worry about giving out cake slices exactly the same size... thats why.

...oh, wait a sec.  



Gawd almighty. Might as well laugh cuz the alternative is too scary.

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Guppy35
I keep looking and keep finding photos of 43 G6s with the regular canopies.  Barkhorn's G6 from late November 43.  Regular Canopy.  Bartel's G6 from November 43, regular canopy.  Graf's G6 from September 43, regular canopy.  Langers G6 from October 43, regular canopy.  Hartmann's G6 from October 43, regular canopy. All these Aces with regular canopies on their G6s from very late 43.  

Both Barkhorn and Graf had a pressurized G-5 not G-6 at that time, I can't tell about the rest; B's 109 has the glass headrest, while Graf's G-5 has the usual pressurized-109 style 'sealed/steel' headrest- but also aileron flettners. Bartel had a G-6 with the Galland panzer again, and all had the older two-piece canopy. I suppose they more rarely replaced the canopy/headrest on the pressurized variants, since those were integral parts of the pressurized cocpit, with the Erla/Galland they would loose this feat.

Prien and Rodeike states on page 105 :

"Also introduced in late summer 1943... was the so-called Galland Panzer"
"Another improvement was the so-called Erla-Haube, which was introduced at the end of 1943".


WNF factory, final assembly hall in late 1943 :

 

G-6s with Erla/Galland, + aileron Flettners.



Not sure about this one's date though... :

 

Kinda think HTC made a good call [/B]

Yep, after looking into my books, 109G-6 with the old type canopy but with the new Galland Panzer seems to be a pretty good choice for an 1943 109G. For 1944 G-6s, there's the G-14...