Author Topic: Cirrus Killer from Cessna  (Read 1157 times)

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2005, 08:14:03 PM »
For some modern cockpits, check these out:


Here are some of the configurations of the Columbia cockpit, steam gauges & avidyne:
http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?aircraft_genericsearch=Lancair%20LC-40%20Columbia&specialsearch=cockpit&aircraftsearch=&distinct_entry=yes

Here's the Garmin 1000 version of the Columbia cockpit: http://www.lancairusa.com/20051031.html

I think I prefer the Avidyne glass cockpit, it's less busy than the G1000.
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Offline dynamt

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« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2005, 09:20:22 PM »
golfer,

 I got thinking about the speed you posted for a 177RG (135Kts.) seems slow. I fly a 172M with the Penn Yan 180 upgrade and I plan 120Kts. and usually see 122-124Kts. TAS at 7-8K. I would of thought that if you take off the struts, suck up the gear,add 20HP and add a CS prop you'd get more than 10-15 knots. Oh well.

Offline Golfer

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« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2005, 09:35:55 PM »
You're adding a lot of weight to it as well.  The club I instructed at and still do though not so often has one...

True Airspeed calculator on the Garmin 430 at 23"mp and 2400rpm = 135kts.  I'm sure you can get more out of it if you run up the prop a bit but that's not how you fly it according to the book.  You also don't get that speed on the same fuel flow.  I could get 160KTAS out of the Mooney if I left the prop at redline...but the fuel flow wouldn't be 9.5gph anymore either.

I did some quick fishing around for a 177RG POH and found one that appears to be transposed from a POH and typed up by hand.

I don't have the 177's POH with me so this will have to do.  In the club's 177 I've never seen the fuel flows they mention on this site...13gph for an IO360...I see that on takeoff in the Mooney on the same motor...not in cruise.  Could be the way the engines are set up and the RPM settings.

Still...135ktas at 23" 2400rpm is what we get.  Maybe we're dragging an invisible drag chute :)

The site...here where I got the info also spells "Gauges" as "Gages" so do take that with a grain of salt.  If these numbers are right then they're right...just not what I've seen and certainly not what I've heard the reputation of the Cardinal to be...it's no Mooney but it sure is purdy.  According to these numbers...it outclasses a Mooney M20J.

« Last Edit: November 22, 2005, 09:40:34 PM by Golfer »

Offline dynamt

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« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2005, 09:59:27 PM »
Thanks for the Info.

Not sure what you meant by adding weight. Conversion adds a minor amount to empty weight.. You do get 250# Gross increase, actually makes it a 4 seater. I have 52 Gals. 48 useable. Full fuel payload is 721#s.

I assume that chart is MPH. So your figure would be about right 23/24 at 5K shows 162 MPH or 137.7 Kts. and 70% BHP. You only have a small anchor.;)

Offline Golfer

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« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2005, 10:13:49 PM »
Hmmm....

Who changed that chart to MPH when I was not looking ;)

I can't stop laughing at myself...:rofl

Offline SD67

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« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2005, 06:53:49 AM »
For my book, any aircraft that has no demonstrated spin recovery technique is dangerous and has no business being certified. In fact demonstrated spin and unusual attitude recovery is usually a prerequisite for certification, Cirrus got around this with the BRS, and I think that is downright dangerous. Relying solely on a BRS to save your prettythang if and when you get into trouble is the most ridiculous ideas yet to be proposed in aviation safety since homeland security.
I say when because this reliance will lead to a contept of conventional aviation saftey , don't believe me? Just think of how it's going to affect Joe Citizen, flying on the edge of inclement weather simply because he feels safe in the knowledge that his BRS will save him "if" something goes wrong.
Never mind the fact that he and his passengers may still suffer horrendous injuries and may still die as a result of the ground impact.
Never mind the fact that while he's trying to make up his mind if this big cloud he's flown into constitutes a hazard he flies into a mountain, and never mind the fact that should he happen to encounter a freak wind gust that suddenly tips his plane over and down into a spin or unusual attitude he's going to have to pull the BRS and in the process destroy the aircraft when a little rudder and roll input would pull any well designed aircraft back onto straight and level.
Sounds like a money grab at the expense of public safety to me.
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Offline StSanta

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« Reply #36 on: November 23, 2005, 11:26:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SD67
think of how it's going to affect Joe Citizen, flying on the edge of inclement weather simply because he feels safe in the knowledge that his BRS will save him "if" something goes wrong.


Device dependency. This is a very hot topic in the skydiving community with good cases on both sides.

We have an Automatic Activation Device. If your vertical speed is higher than 78mph at an altitude of 750, it'll a small pyrotechnic charge that pushes a razor forward, which cuts off the loop holding your reserve in. It essentially gives you a last chance of extending your life beyond the next three seconds.

The same arguments are being made:many new jumpers who didn't jump in the pre-AAD time have developed Device Dependency. The loose definition of this concept is: if you are not willing to do something without the device that you are willing to do with it, you are device dependent.

In flying device dependency could be going up in unfavourable weather or doing advanced maneuvers. The concept is the same.

These devices will save lives. They will also cause deaths. Either by functioning according to their specifications (we lost a very well known skydiver after he made a series of diving spirals under canopy to build speed and unknowingly exceeded 78mph vertical, had his AAD fire, then a two-out in a downplane configuration) or because the users increase the risks due to having them.

The principle behind this is known in psychology and well described by Brian Germain in his book "The Canopy And Its Pilot". I can highly recommend it to pilots as well, as there are many similarities between canopy flight and powered flight.

Risk homeostatis in essence; you balance the perceived risk against your perceived skills. Add more stuff that you think are working in your favour and your perceived "skills" go up, and you're thus willing to take more risk. In essence, ya get used to a certain level of danger and to get the same arousal ya used to, you increase the perceived risks.

Key here being perceived risk vs actual risk, and perceived skills vs actual skills. A mismatch in the wrong direction is very dangerous indeed. Device dependency has a tendency to increase perceived skill and decrease perceived risk.

A simple equation such as if(saved > killed) then GOOD doesn't model the myriad of variables out there. But it's a start.

I turn on my AAD and forget about it. Sometimes, I forget to turn it on. I'll jump knowing it's turned off. There are, after all, two fundamental rules.

1) Don't f*ck up.
2) Don't f*cking die.

Devices may save you if you mess up. Best not to try it, though.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2005, 11:30:47 AM by StSanta »

Offline Golfer

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« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2005, 11:59:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SD67
For my book, any aircraft that has no demonstrated spin recovery technique is dangerous and has no business being certified. In fact demonstrated spin and unusual attitude recovery is usually a prerequisite for certification, Cirrus got around this with the BRS, and I think that is downright dangerous. Relying solely on a BRS to save your prettythang if and when you get into trouble is the most ridiculous ideas yet to be proposed in aviation safety since homeland security.
I say when because this reliance will lead to a contept of conventional aviation saftey , don't believe me? Just think of how it's going to affect Joe Citizen, flying on the edge of inclement weather simply because he feels safe in the knowledge that his BRS will save him "if" something goes wrong.
Never mind the fact that he and his passengers may still suffer horrendous injuries and may still die as a result of the ground impact.
Never mind the fact that while he's trying to make up his mind if this big cloud he's flown into constitutes a hazard he flies into a mountain, and never mind the fact that should he happen to encounter a freak wind gust that suddenly tips his plane over and down into a spin or unusual attitude he's going to have to pull the BRS and in the process destroy the aircraft when a little rudder and roll input would pull any well designed aircraft back onto straight and level.
Sounds like a money grab at the expense of public safety to me.


Fair enough.

However a few points...

Deploying the CAPS system doesn't mean the airplane is destroyed.

There have been several very much successful deployments of the parachute including one in British Columbia where the airplane came down on a heavily wooded and rocky slope in an area smaller than a basketball court.  Everybody walked away, the airplane was airlifted by helicopter out and was repairable with about $20,000 damage.  This loss of control incident would have been a fatal accident in anything other than the Cirrus.

The airplane's landing gear is designed to absorb the impact of the airplane at gross weight under the CAPS canopy and combine that with a fairly sedate vertical speed...you walk away from the accident and have a perfectly repairable airplane.

I sincerely think your beliefs that Pilot Joe Regular will go further beyond his own limitations or drastically increase his personal limitations because of the CAPS system are misplaced.  The same warnings can be said to light airplanes and "known ice" certification.  There isn't a light or propeller driven airplane made that can withstand prolonged contact with heavy or severe ice.  The tools (whether TKS or Boots and a Hot Plate) are strictly for use when escaping ice and should be used as such.

The same people who would charge into an area of known ice heavier than "light" in a light airplane is the same guy who'd justify the decisions you list above.

Continued VFR into IMC is a/the big killer of light airplane pilots and it's something that happens in every type of airplane from a J3 cub to Piper Meridians.  It's certainly not exclusive to an airplane that gives you a way to save your life and your passengers lives.

BRS parachute systems have been used in the ultralight community for years and have had hundreds of successful deployments and saved a majority of those lives.  The airplane has enough rudder and if I had someone who had too much money and wanted to have a go...I'd spin the thing.

Spin recoverability of an airplane doesn't much matter because if you flew yourself into the spin in the first place as a result of poor airmanship...what makes you think that you could get out of a very disorienting spin while in IMC?  I've never been in a spin in the clouds, so does that mean I'm not certified or fit to fly instruments?

Here are a few more pages from the SR22 information manual:




"it's use should not be taken lightly"

Anybody that hops in a Cirrus is going to have some training and Cirrus right now has some of the best CFIs in the country doing that training.  I know a few and though I haven't been to their "CSIP" program (what CFI can afford that anyway?!) I can assure you that they do not and I do not take the parachute lightly, treat it as an item to be used on a regular basis or use it as an excuse to justify dumb piloting mistakes.

Offline Debonair

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« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2005, 02:57:41 PM »
Was installing the BRS a way to circumvent some of the prohibitive expenses of certification, or is it an actual feature of the aircraft?  Just looking at the plane, it seems quite conventional.  I would expect normal spin recovery techniques would be effective, if the airframe remained intact.

Offline Golfer

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« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2005, 03:11:55 PM »
::Shrug::

Maybe they were trying to make a point?  Call Cirrus and ask I just fly the darn things :)

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2005, 03:24:21 PM »
Have I mentioned the Columbia yet?

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Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #41 on: November 23, 2005, 03:35:36 PM »
I figured you would prefer a Luscombe, Chairboy.
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Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #42 on: November 23, 2005, 03:42:33 PM »
Only for supersonic flight.
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Offline dynamt

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« Reply #43 on: November 23, 2005, 09:02:34 PM »
If you visit the COPA site. One reason that many people give for picking cirrus is room, mainly headroom. Some of these people have owned both.
There also seems to be some gripes about the seats.

I'd be happy with either. anyone got 400K they don't need, I'll pick up the rest.:rofl

Offline Golfer

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« Reply #44 on: November 23, 2005, 11:29:15 PM »
They're not your living room recliner...but they're no slouches.  Blows away a Mooney.  Sure beats the C-172, PA-32 and Chevy Silverado I'm used to piloting.  Silverado has heated seats and lumbar suport too :)
« Last Edit: November 23, 2005, 11:31:43 PM by Golfer »