Author Topic: Post Malta discussion of ways to improve scenarios  (Read 4936 times)

Offline MAG1C

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Post Malta discussion of ways to improve scenarios
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2006, 12:49:25 PM »
There was a comment, early in this string, regarding unrealistic altitudes.  I noticed during the Squalls FSO that the fog/haze factor and visability range had a strong influence on the game.  Buffs couldn't find the target unless they got under it.  BARCAPs had trouble finding fighter bombers before they bombed and had to go low to find them in the target area.  The result was (from what I saw) that the air-to-air combat was low altitude.

I don't know what the Aces High arena setting limitations are but maybe this could be used in future scenarios to limit plane altitudes without trying to use restrictions in the rules (which are hard to enforce).

- MAG1C

Offline ROC

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Post Malta discussion of ways to improve scenarios
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2006, 01:19:54 PM »
Magic, that line of reasoning is exactly the direction we are trying to take as we move forward this year.  There will be a great deal of thought as the event is designed to establish multiple levels of action to keep the game playable.  Fog being a great tool, the insertion of active and strategically important ground elements that are virtually invisible if the fight strays too high, combining shore bombardment with air strikes again, to keep the fight localized to realistic altitudes, and equally important very high long range bomber missions for those who love alt.

It will require a great deal of participation in the design.  I expect people like you to play a very important role in this area, especially knowing your experience in events from flying along side you for so many years.

Westy, all I can say is I hope to do well and we will see.  

I have a few years experience under my belt.  Culero, Brooke, now Newman is on my team.  I have sent an application to roscoroo (thanks for the FOM patch by the way Rosco, got it a couple days ago)

It's January and I have put Culero on Pearl Harbor and we are going to do our darndest to produce that event in December.  It will take until October just to get it layed out on the scale we are looking at, then from October to Frame 1 organizing the teams, and practicing for the event.   That's almost a year off, there's half a dozen in between that I Want running.  The committment level and desire to bring scenarios to the forefront has only been hampered by technical difficulties at the map end which now look to have a staggeringly better result than we could have dreamed of.

April, the next event runs.  The map is near complete, and we are beginning to staff up and start production.  While this event is being produced, the next waves are being designed, and the following are being conceptualized.

The intention is to have multiple runs of the same event.  Say, for example, we run BoB.  The production, design, setup conditions are complete.  It is possible to run a Late Weekday Evening Frame, An ETO friendly and US friendly time slot.  Have different COs, independant scoring.  Everyone gets a shot at playing.  That's a possibility that has significant merit and deserves consideration.   How about a 24 hour event?  Rotate in divisions, register for a time slot or Multiple time slots, and run it.  I am open to building Community Based Events, which really only work if the Community can attend.  So yes, I back up my message of If you want better events, ATTEND, with I will make Attendance by everyone Possible.

As for the pool of scenario players who are not in AH anymore, that may be so, some have left.   However, I attend snapshots, air races, and generally discuss events in the MA and there are new people who come in every day who think the concept is fantastic.  I won't discount them, I will encourage them, I entered my first scenario in AW and barely knew how to raise my landing gear.  It's MY job to make the events desireable, which can only happen if I pay attention to what You and others like you want to play.

Interestingly enough, there are some very old sticks and familiar faces that I am seeing more of daily.   An exodus is like a tracer, they work both ways.
ROC
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Offline Fury

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Post Malta discussion of ways to improve scenarios
« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2006, 10:15:55 PM »
Congrats Brooke!

I thought maybe Culero forgot to change his avatar when I ran across a post of his in OT and saw Pearl Harbor; now I know better (cool!).

Offline Brooke

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Post Malta discussion of ways to improve scenarios
« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2006, 01:17:23 AM »
Thanks, Fury; and I'll be looking forward to you in many more scenarios to come! :)

Welcome also to new CM's Newman and Roscoroo -- I will very much enjoy working with you guys.

Westy, the goal is to ramp up the number of scenarios running, to increase participation, and to increase variety in many ways (including time, if we can manage to get participation outside of weekends).  Aces High has its share of folks who love scenarios, its share of untapped potential among people who would love scenarios if they knew about them, and even its share of returning old timers from the first days of scenarios.  We'll get there.

As far as stagnation goes, I've only been actively playing Aces High in the last 1.5-2 years after a long time away from on-line flying.  However, your comment reminds of 1992-1993 in Air Warrior.  That was the time of a prolonged feeling of stagnation in Air Warrior, where many players, myself included, had been asking for various things in the game (accelerated stalls, spins, blackouts, etc.) for the preceding years and seeing no progress in the game.  Many gave up and left in 1993 right before Kesmai came out with SVGA Air Warrior, which had a lot of what we had been asking for.  Here, in Aces High, we are on the verge of Combat Tour; we have just recently gotten the Axis vs. Allies arena (which from my two times in it so far seems to be a blast and much different from the main arena); we have air racing; we have very-well-attended Squad Ops, which are great scenario-like events running almost every week; we are working to ramp up scenarios; we have had many excellent scenarios already; and so on.

Also, there has been (from my perspective anyway), a large influx of very old timers who have started flying again after years or a decade away from on-line flying.  To me, it feels like a convergence and a gathering, not a diaspora.

Offline Westy

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Post Malta discussion of ways to improve scenarios
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2006, 08:39:40 AM »
I hope your right Brooke and ROC.  Your "glass is half full and rising!" mindsets does put a smile on my face (and I'm sure many others).  And heck if there were weekday and/or weekend night time frames then the MA could indeed almost be a place to practice for them again.   But even though I do not share that positive outlook it does not mean that I wish for the group to fail. Far from it. I just think there are major influences which are outside of your control that effect scenarios in AH.

 Brooke I truly hope you, ROC, Culero and the others can pull it off.  IMO nothing beats a scenario and with the new CM team and especially "Combat Tour" coming (soon?) perhaps the ranks of participants will swell again.  

  and best wishes for success!  Truly.

Westy

Offline DoKGonZo

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Post Malta discussion of ways to improve scenarios
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2006, 11:34:31 PM »
A few things ...

- I'm willing to do feature films for any events that are run. I can usually turn these around in 10-14 days from the time I get all the footage and they're a nice way to memorialize the event. If there's enough lead time and we get a group of people to do some staged sequences, I could also do a teaser film in advance of event registration.

- If there's interest I could also take a run at patch designs for events. I already have a CafePress store already rigged, so any design I generate I can just have stuff like mugs and mousepads done that way for anyone who wants it with no inventory cost.

- The "specialness" of scenarios is one reason I proposed the entry fee. That gives the CM team a pile of cash with which to give out prizes, produce and distribute patches, and possibly even advertise the events on other sim-gaming web sites. The uniqueness of the large-scale scenario needs to be brought back - it should be something that no one wants to miss, instead of something that a third of the people seem to forget they signed up for.

- An idea I've had along the lines of uniqueness (is that a word?) is to have microsites for each event. I tried that with Rangoon - so all the docs and maps and AARs and screenies were all in one place. Worked nice. We could try something like install WordPress for each event and let everyone post their stuff their as it happens - then the complete history of the event is captured in one place forever (since the forums get churned over when a new event is started).

- I don't know what the effects on registration will be if there is a sign-up fee. Maybe it could be posed as a PayPal donation - something appreciated but not manditory. I think that if everyone understands that the money will go into stuff that will go back to them one way or another most players will donate $5 or $10. I don't think most players are aware that scenarios have zero corporate support in terms of procuring memorabilia and prizes.

Offline Zwerg

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Post Malta discussion of ways to improve scenarios
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2006, 04:36:40 AM »
I like scenarios very much.
I play online since 1997 (or so). First AW and when it ended I went over to AH. During this time I didn't miss many scenarios. I write this to make clear that I'll always find all relevant informations and webpages to subcribe and fly a scenario.

But I have to say: it is not easy to find those informations.

My suggestion:
A webpage with all informations in 1 place.
 
  • Number of frames
  • Date per frame, time per frame (GMT, EST, PST, CET)  
  • OOB with roster (real time update of slot status)
  • Rules (like we have it now, that's ok)  
  • Changes of the rules


Would mean:
At any moment before and during a scenario we have all important informations in 1 place.
I think this would also make things easier for the CMs. No more additional informations in the forums. Just link the webpage
« Last Edit: January 28, 2006, 04:42:47 AM by Zwerg »

Offline ROC

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Post Malta discussion of ways to improve scenarios
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2006, 10:07:04 AM »
With the announcement of the next event, people will be exposed to the new events web page and registration system.

Our trial run of the site and system was during Fire Over Malta, and that showed us some good ways to improve the system.

The new website is much more user friendly, and information centralized and more easily accessed.

Work in progress, but Zwerg, your points are dead on and what we are building towards :aok  Thanks for the pointers, keep em coming people, you would be suprised at how many of the things we are implementing come from threads like this.
ROC
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Offline Zwerg

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Post Malta discussion of ways to improve scenarios
« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2006, 02:33:15 PM »
Good to hear, ROC. :)

I know it's not so easy to build a good website that is also comfortable for doing data updates (Database and all that stuff). But once it's done the future benefits are huge.

Offline ROC

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Post Malta discussion of ways to improve scenarios
« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2006, 03:50:59 PM »
btw, check out the "coming soon" post, nifty film ;)
ROC
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Offline Taiaha

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Post Malta discussion of ways to improve scenarios
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2006, 10:28:41 PM »
Bit late with this because I don't check the boards much anymore.  But I hope the perspective may still be useful, because I seem to be in a bit of a different category than a lot of you posting here.

From my very first scenario (the BOB a few years a back) I became a scenario Junkie.  I haven't been involved in as many as most of you, but quite a few: Kurland, Big Week, 2 BOBs, Okinawa, Malta, Rangoon, Midway.  The only one I've really loathed was Midway, mainly because of some blatant gaming (using B17s as fighters) and because the planeset wasn't really up to it.  My favorites?  Buffing in Big Week and, surprisingly, Okinawa playing Axis.  But I've loved all of them (except Midway).  I don't care about alt controversies.  In Malta I was in a couple of fights where the 109s arrived much higher than we did (and I'm sure on other parts of the field the allies were arriving to the fighter higher than the Axis).  We didn't whine about it, we simply dragged them down and killed them (and knackered their buffs on the way).  The way I see it, that kind of thing actually makes the scenario more realistic.  Real warfare was seldom fair, and pilots were jumped by enemy with a substantial alt advantage all the time.  They would have loved it if someone had arranged things to try and level the playing field.  I rarely get the chance to fly all the frames of a scenario; RL is just too busy for that.  I've usually flown with squaddies, but recently I've been part of mixed squads.  And that has been great.  I've enjoyed meeting new people and gaining respect for people I've only seen on the boards or whom I've never even met before.  And I've learned a lot from flying with the likes of Brooke.

But here's the deal.  Scenarios are practically the only thing I fly in AH now.  Recently I've made a couple of forays into the AvA arena (loved the rolling planeset).  And I'm part of a squad that used to have a substantial presence in AH, both in the MA and especially in the scenarios.  I don't think anyone would describe the Firebirds as one of the flashier AH squads, and we certainly weren't the largest.  But we've been there in the scenarios for lo these many years.

Most of us don't fly AH at all any more.  And a few of us, like myself, only hang on for the scenarios.  The reasons are many.  Some are just a little burned out on flying in general.  But most of us are spending all our available gaming hours flying IL2/Forgotten Battles/Pacific Fighters and loving it.  The reasons are many, and probably nothing you haven't heard before.  We like flying planes with realistic engine behavior (I had forgotten how much this mattered to me, until I pinged a 109 the other night in AvA and watched it fly around with a smoking engine for 10 minutes).  We like flying planes with realistic cockpits.  We like the more realistic damage modelling.  We like--and here's where it starts to become relevant to scenarios--flying the obscure planes as much as the more well-known ones.  And to judge from the population on the various FB arenas, a lot of other people do as well.  Why is it that people there don't seem to mind flying obscure early war biplanes or strange variants of Russian (and American) aircraft that few have ever heard of?  What makes them want to attempt carrier take-offs in a wildcat where they have to hand crank the gear?

I think the answer is love of immersion, love of something a little different, and an interest in challenging yourself.  I think those are the things that scenarios should be about.

But, quite honestly, AH tends to make all of these things a little difficult.  I personally don't fault any of the scenario event organizers.  I think they have all done a fantastic job.  No one is getting paid to do this, and they all put in a huge amount of time designing and coordinating these things.  I couldn't imagine myself doing any one part of their job half as well.  But, AH itself. . .welll. . .

Let's agree that there are different kinds of immersion.  But let's also agree that AH has dropped certain kinds of immersion based on realism in order to accommodate a less specialized player base (so no realistic engine behavior, cockpits, damage modelling, etc.).  And one of the things that has really hampered scenario designs, it seems to me, is that designers are faced with making endless series of substitutions because AH long ago stopped developing its planeset in any meaningful sense.  When I first joined AH I loved the fact that it contained many planes I hadn't flown anywhere else, and for a while, more of these were added.  But for a couple of years now, all we've had is yet another variant of things that we already have.  So scenario designers are faced with doing yet another Pacific scenario with a JU88 masquerading as a Betty; with doing BOB without the most common Luftwaffe bombers, with doing a Russian scenario that can't use any Russian bombers at all.  And we can't do any scenarios that employ any really quirky aircraft (something that might bring new people in if they could try something really novel).

So I don't think AH makes it easy for a successful scenario.  And I also don't think that any of the things you are all proposing here (better marketing, etc.) will really do anything, mainly because, as I said above, I think most scenario teams really have done a sterling job.

The big thing you design teams are battling is the MA "instant success in an uber ride win at all costs" mentality.  We could all argue over what exactly this mentality is and how pervasive it is, but the fact is, that when you are trying to get people to attend scenarios, even those who have played scenarios before, you are asking people who spend most of their time flying as apples to fly as oranges.

So there is only one thing I see that could change this: Tour of Duty 2, or Combat Ops, or whatever it is being called now, when it actually arrives.  This could, if it works well, give people a taste of immersive combat environments, success based on mission completion, teamwork, etc., all the things that scenarios are about.  Gradually, it could start to change the way people approach their flying, so that scenarios will start to be seen as an extension of ToD, rather than as something completely alien to the MA.  My dream would be to see the MA shrink in population to the size of the old CT!  OK, so that will probably never happen, but you see the idea.

Forgive the late night ramblings, but I'm bored with the Olympic coverage already.  And please don't interpret this as a bash AH post.  There's a good reason I still have an AH subscription!  And I plan on being there for the next scenario, for as many nights as I can handle, and dragging as many of my squad members who still have accounts in with me.

Offline jordi

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Post Malta discussion of ways to improve scenarios
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2006, 10:38:02 PM »
You didn't like MIDWAY ? Dang that was MY Event and MY Design . .

I LOVED it - mostly because the CV Fleets actually MOVED ! A big step from the Air Warrior days :)

And it had the highest attendence figures for any AH Scenario - 300+ For most frames.

:)

Scenarios will always be my first love of FLight Sims. Next to hosting a convention for one !

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Pulled out of Mothballs for DGS Allied Bomber Group Leader :)

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Offline Taiaha

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Post Malta discussion of ways to improve scenarios
« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2006, 11:44:00 AM »
Hey Jordi, no offense meant, mate!  You notice I didn't say anything about the design, you worked well with what you had.  But the TBM3 was clearly a cut above the actual Devastator, and the fact that they could dive at nearly 400mph and release a torpedo that still worked was a little problematic.  At that point I don't think we even had the Wildcat, did we?  No, the actual design was great, that's what got our squad excited about flying Axis for a change!

But that's my point about the effect of having a realistic planeset.  I'm hopeful that as AH adds extra campaigns to the TOD thingie, they will add new planes to make those really work.  But realistically that is going to be a couple of years away, considering we're starting with the only campaign where we do have a halfway complete planeset.

So, yes, no criticism of the design intended!  And I know a lot of people loved the scenario.  If we had a TBD, I would love to see a re-run, since it is one of those "classic" scenarios like BOB that could go either way.

Offline jordi

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Post Malta discussion of ways to improve scenarios
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2006, 12:44:49 PM »
Oh I agree - the closer the actual plane set can be to what was there so much the better.

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Pulled out of Mothballs for DGS Allied Bomber Group Leader :)

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Offline DustyR

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Post Malta discussion of ways to improve scenarios
« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2006, 02:00:45 PM »
Malta was my first sceniaro, & I saw very little action, flew screen most of the time.  Enjoy it - certainly, or I would not be writing this.  I really enjoy the action, or lack of it and realize that the average WAR II gun time was less than 15 seconds.  Keep up the good work!:noid
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