Author Topic: Interesting American History  (Read 858 times)

Offline Suave

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« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2005, 03:43:40 PM »
James Madison
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood for centuries."

Thomas Paine
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."

John Adams
"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"

Ethan Allen
"That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words."

Thomas Jefferson
"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own."

"Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being."

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors"

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."

Treaty of Peace and Friendship 1796
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion
« Last Edit: November 27, 2005, 03:45:48 PM by Suave »

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2005, 04:37:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
It does not exist
There is NO seperation of church and state in the consitution ANYWHERE.

That claim that there is,is a myth
And not just a little myth either as its closer to an outright lie then anything resembling the truth.

And its not even close to the intent of the clause you are wrongly attemting to refer to
If that were its original intent as I am not particularly religeous I would support it because that was what the original intent was. But it is in fact not its original intent or anything even closely resembling it.

ITs original intent was to not have one official "Church of the United States" that is what was meant when they wrote "Congress shall pass no law respecting and establishment of religeon"

Hang you are so far off base on this one you might as well be in another galaxy.
By far the overwhelming weight of evidence is against you.
Its not even close.
I suggest you re read your history


The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

I respectfully disagree, Drediock. The above reference to religion in the Constitution, Article VI; is written in the form of an unequivocal denial of any place to be given to religious considerations in determining qualifications for public office, including Judges. The adoption of this proposal in effect, precluded the possibility of any church-state union or the establishment of a state church. Hence, Seperation of Church and State.

Next, the First Ammendment..

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

It's pretty basic, and that's where the implied notion of 'freedom of religion in the constitution' stems from. Freedom OF religion is analogous to Freedom FROM Religion.

The aspect of "freedom from religion" is recognized in the courts since the forming of this nation. Sometimes directly, sometimes indirectly in a variety of ways. It boils down to this: There can be no freedom OF religion WITHOUT freedom FROM government-promoted, government-sponsored, government-permitted, government-mandated and/or government-endorsed religion.

Period.

Try to wrap your brain around the 'seperation of church and state' from this aspect..

There is no freedom of religion just because you can pick which church you wish to attend, when you are required or expected to attend a church.

There is no freedom of religion just because you can pick which religion to belong to, when you are required or expected to belong to a religion.

There is no freedom of religion just because you don't have to profess a religious belief to run for or hold public office, so long as you are required or expected to be a member of an acceptable main line religion.

There is freedom of religion only when there is the freedom to be or not to be religious, freedom to belong or reject, freedom to do or not do.
 
There is freedom of religion only so long as there is freedom of and freedom from religion. Freedom has to have both of these elements or it isn't freedom.

Choice, choice to be religious or not to be religious, choice to believe or not to believe, choice to accept, be a part of, embrace, profess, any religion you may want or no religion at all, and not be punished, given extra burden, discriminated against, denied, etc, by government based on that choice. Freedom of religion places the religious and non-religion on the same level playing field.

And THATS the basis of 'seperation of church and state'.

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Offline Octavius

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« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2005, 05:23:22 PM »
pwnt
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Offline Karnak

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« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2005, 06:56:47 PM »
You might want to do some research rather than just believing whatever churchy stuff shows up in your inbox.

Those types of mailings are made up lies all the time.  Posting such regurgitated drivel because it reinforces your bias is just sad.
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Offline Vulcan

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« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2005, 07:12:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by J_A_B
"Kind of silly really."

Long after we are all gone, thousands of years from now people will still argue over their beliefs about some god(s) or another.   It's probable that today's religions will be looked upon as backwards as we today see the pagan religions of the Greeks or Norsemen.

J_A_B


thousands of years from now? Theres a lot of people who already take this view. If you explain some of the stuff in the bible to the average Asian (buddhist) they think its hilarious - especially those with strong buddhist beliefs.

Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2005, 08:01:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

I respectfully disagree, Drediock. The above reference to religion in the Constitution, Article VI; is written in the form of an unequivocal denial of any place to be given to religious considerations in determining qualifications for public office, including Judges. The adoption of this proposal in effect, precluded the possibility of any church-state union or the establishment of a state church. Hence, Seperation of Church and State.

Next, the First Ammendment..

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

It's pretty basic, and that's where the implied notion of 'freedom of religion in the constitution' stems from. Freedom OF religion is analogous to Freedom FROM Religion.

The aspect of "freedom from religion" is recognized in the courts since the forming of this nation. Sometimes directly, sometimes indirectly in a variety of ways. It boils down to this: There can be no freedom OF religion WITHOUT freedom FROM government-promoted, government-sponsored, government-permitted, government-mandated and/or government-endorsed religion.

Period.

Try to wrap your brain around the 'seperation of church and state' from this aspect..

There is no freedom of religion just because you can pick which church you wish to attend, when you are required or expected to attend a church.

There is no freedom of religion just because you can pick which religion to belong to, when you are required or expected to belong to a religion.

There is no freedom of religion just because you don't have to profess a religious belief to run for or hold public office, so long as you are required or expected to be a member of an acceptable main line religion.

There is freedom of religion only when there is the freedom to be or not to be religious, freedom to belong or reject, freedom to do or not do.
 
There is freedom of religion only so long as there is freedom of and freedom from religion. Freedom has to have both of these elements or it isn't freedom.

Choice, choice to be religious or not to be religious, choice to believe or not to believe, choice to accept, be a part of, embrace, profess, any religion you may want or no religion at all, and not be punished, given extra burden, discriminated against, denied, etc, by government based on that choice. Freedom of religion places the religious and non-religion on the same level playing field.

And THATS the basis of 'seperation of church and state'.



Well I HAD a nice leangthy post dismantling your arguement until a brownout induced reboot on my computer ruined it all.
I really dont feel like retyping it all right now. maybe I will later.

But basically I dont see how you can say so many right things and still draw all the wrong conclusions.

No matter what way you slice it. Original intent was that there was to be no official "church of the United States"

And that no official church teachings  were to be used as a test for office.
In fact   Government officials were required to declare their belief in God even to be allowed to hold a public office until a case in the U.S. Supreme Court called Torcaso v. Watkins (Oct. 1960).

Now you are going to try to tell me the judges in 1960 knew more about what the founding fathers intended then the founding fathers themselves did when they actually wrote it almost 200 years before?

LMAO I think not

there is no "separation" clause even in your
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

Its just not there and your reaching for a hidden meaning that just isnt there.

It only means they cant test you by saying things like "Do you beleive in the teachings of one specific church or another" and thats the long and short of it.

There is no clause barring religeon from government. Only that the goverment cannot form its own religeon and use it as a qualifier for public office.

there is no "Separation of church and state" other then that
Its not there and it does not exist.

As I have said before I am not particularly religeous myself and really I have nothing to gain by taking my position.
And in fact it wasnt very long ago that I would have taken your position which is a position I have discovered as being wrong
But I am a beleiver in original intent of the constitution. Particularly in light of the way polititions and judges have managed to twist and distort it to mean what THEY want it to mean and not how it was intended.
Just as you are doing now
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Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2005, 08:10:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
Nor does it guarantee special acknowledgment of a christian church. It does recognize slavery however, article 1 section 2. (those 3/5ths of a person they are talking about are slaves).


and nobody has said it is.
But... before, diring and Since the framing of the constitution "God" is meantioned over and over and over again in almost too many "official" documents to count.

And remember. During the time of the writing of the constitution it wasnt a matter of a "Christian" church being one religeon.
Protestants, Orthadox, Catholic were ALL considered to be DIFFERENT religeons.

Now we all tend to lump them all into one religeon "christanity" but back then they were all considered different religeons.

What people try to do. and usually incorrectly I might add on this as well as many other subjects is to use todays mindset to interpret the mindset of 50,100,200  etc years ago.
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Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2005, 09:08:46 PM »
Dred, you didn't read my post.

Couldn't have.

impossible.

Cause if you had, you'd understand that 'freedom OF religion' cannot exist without freedom 'FROM' religion.

That's not debatable.

And it's IN the constitution. Twice. And the intent is absolutey to establish a seperation between church and state.

But don't take my word for it.. mayhaps you'll take Jeffersons word on it. He was CERTAINLY in a position to know the framers intent; dontcha think? ;)

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. My duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. (Congress is thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.)  Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.


From the Constitution OnLine

Now, I'm not sure where in particular your assumption of and/or parroting of christian right rehotoric is headed, but if your trying to convince me that America was created as a religious secular State, I strongly beg to differ. Further should you be advocating an increased permissiveness with regards to religious activisim inside the halls of government in the United States of America today I'd be forced to class you as a religious whackjob as dangerous as any other religious whackjob that demands devotions to god for the good of all... you know; Osama's Boys.

Cheers!
« Last Edit: November 27, 2005, 09:12:35 PM by Hangtime »
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Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2005, 09:12:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Suave
[yadda yadda yadda yadda


George Washington
The Farewell Address
In his Farewell Address, the first president advised his fellow citizens that "Religion and morality" were the "great Pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and citizens." "National morality," he added, could not exist "in exclusion of religious principle." "Virtue or morality," he concluded, as the products of religion, were "a necessary spring of popular government."

Franklin Requests Prayers in the Constitutional Convention
Benjamin Franklin delivered this famous speech, asking that the Convention begin each day's session with prayers, at a particularly contentious period, when it appeared that the Convention might break up over its failure to resolve the dispute between the large and small states over representation in the new government. The eighty one year old Franklin asserted that "the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this Truth--that God governs in the Affairs of Men."

Perhaps you would care to see it in his own handwriting
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/vc006642.jpg

Benjamin Franklin:
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech

“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?” [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."

Madison
On September 28, 1789, both houses of Congress voted to send twelve amendments to the states. In December 1791, those ratified by the requisite three fourths of the states became the first ten amendments to the Constitution. Religion was addressed in the First Amendment in the following familiar words: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." In notes for his June 8, 1789, speech introducing the Bill of Rights, Madison indicated his opposition to a "national" religion. Most Americans agreed that the federal government must not pick out one religion and give it exclusive financial and legal support.

John Adams
"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell."

Adams's Fast Day Proclamation
John Adams continued the practice, begun in 1775 and adopted under the new federal government by Washington, of issuing fast and thanksgiving day proclamations. In this proclamation, issued at a time when the nation appeared to be on the brink of a war with France, Adams urged the citizens to "acknowledge before God the manifold sins and transgressions with which we are justly chargeable as individuals and as a nation; beseeching him at the same time, of His infinite grace, through the Redeemer of the World, freely to remit all our offences, and to incline us, by His Holy Spirit, to that sincere repentance and reformation which may afford us reason to hope for his inestimable favor and heavenly benediction

Care to see the original Document?

"
THE STATE BECOMES THE CHURCH:
JEFFERSON AND MADISON
It is no exaggeration to say that on Sundays in Washington during the administrations of Thomas Jefferson (1801-1809) and of James Madison (1809-1817) the state became the church. Within a year of his inauguration, Jefferson began attending church services in the House of Representatives. Madison followed Jefferson's example, although unlike Jefferson, who rode on horseback to church in the Capitol, Madison came in a coach and four. Worship services in the House--a practice that continued until after the Civil War--were acceptable to Jefferson because they were nondiscriminatory and voluntary. Preachers of every Protestant denomination appeared. (Catholic priests began officiating in 1826.) As early as January 1806 a female evangelist, Dorothy Ripley, delivered a camp meeting-style exhortation in the House to Jefferson, Vice President Aaron Burr, and a "crowded audience." Throughout his administration Jefferson permitted church services in executive branch buildings. The Gospel was also preached in the Supreme Court chambers.
Jefferson's actions may seem surprising because his attitude toward the relation between religion and government is usually thought to have been embodied in his recommendation that there exist "a wall of separation between church and state."  

In that statement, Jefferson was apparently declaring his opposition, as Madison had done in introducing the Bill of Rights, to a "national" religion. In attending church services on public property, Jefferson and Madison consciously and deliberately were offering symbolic support to religion as a prop for republican government.

Source- Library of CongressSource- Library of Congress

Thomas Jefferson:
“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]


John Adams and John Hancock:
"We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!"

John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798


Continued....
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Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2005, 09:12:35 PM »
Samuel Adams: | Portrait of Sam Adams | Powerpoint presentation on John, John Quincy, and Sam Adams
“ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.” [ "American Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]

“ Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity… and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system.” [October 4, 1790]


John Quincy Adams:
• “Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?
--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.

“The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.”
John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61

Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence | Portrait of Charles Carroll
" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." [Source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]

Alexander Hamilton:
• Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great:
(1) Christianity
(2) a Constitution formed under Christianity.
“The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.”

On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, “I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.”

"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."

John Hancock:
• “In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness… Resolved; …Thursday the 11th of May…to humble themselves before God under the heavy judgments felt and feared, to confess the sins that have deserved them, to implore the Forgiveness of all our transgressions, and a spirit of repentance and reformation …and a Blessing on the … Union of the American Colonies in Defense of their Rights [for which hitherto we desire to thank Almighty God]…That the people of Great Britain and their rulers may have their eyes opened to discern the things that shall make for the peace of the nation…for the redress of America’s many grievances, the restoration of all her invaded liberties, and their security to the latest generations.
"A Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, with a total abstinence from labor and recreation. Proclamation on April 15, 1775


Thomas Paine:
“ It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles: he can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author.”
“ The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of his existence. They labour with studied ingenuity to ascribe every thing they behold to innate properties of matter, and jump over all the rest by saying, that matter is eternal.” “The Existence of God--1810”

Justice Joseph Story:
“ I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law. . . There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.”
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]
“ Infidels and pagans were banished from the halls of justice as unworthy of credit.” [Life and letters of Joseph Story, Vol. II 1851, pp. 8-9.]



“ At the time of the adoption of the constitution, and of the amendment to it, now under consideration [i.e., the First Amendment], the general, if not the universal sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state, so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship.”



I can go on
See. I can quote too!
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It ain't pretty

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2005, 09:16:29 PM »
So whats the deal Dred?

You a religious whack job advocating religious control of government?
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Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2005, 09:19:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
Dred, you didn't read my post.

Couldn't have.

impossible.

Cause if you had, you'd understand that 'freedom OF religion' cannot exist without freedom 'FROM' religion.

That's not debatable.

And it's IN the constitution. Twice. And the intent is absolutey to establish a seperation between church and state.

But don't take my word for it.. mayhaps you'll take Jeffersons word on it. He was CERTAINLY in a position to know the framers intent; dontcha think? ;)

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. My duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. (Congress is thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.)  Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.


From the Constitution OnLine

Now, I'm not sure where in particular your assumption of and/or parroting of christian right rehotoric is headed, but if your trying to convince me that America was created as a religious secular State, I strongly beg to differ. Further should you be advocating an increased permissiveness with regards to religious activisim inside the halls of government in the United States of America today I'd be forced to class you as a religious whackjob as dangerous as any other religious whackjob that demands devotions to god for the good of all... you know; Osama's Boys.

Cheers!


I indeed did read it. and your still wrong.

You quote a letter by Jefferson where he mentions a "Separation of church and state which is where everyone gets dillusioned into thinking its in the constitution. It is in fact not.

 But even in quoting the letter you fail to grasp what he ment when he said that.
Again, you are trying to apply todays mindset to a different mindset of over 200 years ago.

The reason Jefferson choose the expression "separation of church and state" was because he was addressing a Baptist congregation; a denomination of which he was not a member.  Jefferson wanted to remove all fears that the state would make dictates to the church.  He was establishing common ground with the Baptists by borrowing the words of Roger Williams, one of the Baptist's own prominent preachers.  Williams had said:
When they have opened a gap in the hedge or wall of separation between the garden of the Church and the wilderness of the world, God hath ever broke down the wall itself, removed the candlestick, and made his garden a wilderness, as at this day.  And that there fore if He will eer please to restore His garden and paradise again, it must of necessity be walled in peculiarly unto Himself from the world...(2)

The "wall" was understood as one-directional; its purpose was to protect the church from the state.  The world was not to corrupt the church, yet the church was free to teach the people Biblical values.

The American people knew what would happen if the State established the Church like in England.  Even though it was not recent history to them, they knew that England went so far as forbidding worship in private homes and sponsoring all church activities and keeping people under strict dictates.  They were forced to go to the state established church and do things that were contrary to their conscience.  No other churches were allowed, and mandatory attendance of the established church was compelled under the Conventicle Act of 1665.  Failure to comply would result in imprisonment and torture.  The people did not want freedom from religion, but freedom of religion.  The only real reason to separate the church from the state would be to instill a new morality and establish a new system of beliefs.  Our founding fathers were God-fearing men who understood that for a country to stand it must have a solid foundation; the Bible was the source of this foundation.  They believed that God's ways were much higher than Man's ways and held firmly that the Bible was the absolute standard of truth and used the Bible as a source to form our government.
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty

Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2005, 09:28:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
So whats the deal Dred?

You a religious whack job advocating religious control of government?


LMAO not at all. not even in the slightest.
I am only barely what even the most llibeal could call religious.
I am more spiritual

Put it this way. While I voted for him I do see Bush as a religeous zealot.
But for the moment I saw him as the lessor of two evils

Told ya. I beleive in original intent. And I just dont like the way original intent keeps getting skewed and twisted by revisionists to suit their own likes
 I may not always like what those intents were myself. But they are there
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2005, 09:28:44 PM »
It's like talking to a brick wall.

One more time. Read his letter. What did he say? Did he not state precisely that there is a seperation between church and state? Was he not one of the principal framers of the constitution? And, was he not ALSO a religious man? If what you postulate as truth was truth then why did he NOT grant the disposition and special protection the Baptist Ministers sought?

Derd, yer off base, man.

What are you advocting.. or are you just flat refusing to consider that the right wing chriistian rehtoric you've been brainwashed with could be wide of the mark?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2005, 09:31:07 PM by Hangtime »
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...at home, or abroad.

Offline crowMAW

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« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2005, 10:08:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
There is no freedom of religion just because you can pick which church you wish to attend, when you are required or expected to attend a church.

There is no freedom of religion just because you can pick which religion to belong to, when you are required or expected to belong to a religion.

There is no freedom of religion just because you don't have to profess a religious belief to run for or hold public office, so long as you are required or expected to be a member of an acceptable main line religion.

There is freedom of religion only when there is the freedom to be or not to be religious, freedom to belong or reject, freedom to do or not do.
 
There is freedom of religion only so long as there is freedom of and freedom from religion. Freedom has to have both of these elements or it isn't freedom.

Choice, choice to be religious or not to be religious, choice to believe or not to believe, choice to accept, be a part of, embrace, profess, any religion you may want or no religion at all, and not be punished, given extra burden, discriminated against, denied, etc, by government based on that choice. Freedom of religion places the religious and non-religion on the same level playing field.

And THATS the basis of 'seperation of church and state'.


 Nicely said. :aok
« Last Edit: November 27, 2005, 10:29:31 PM by crowMAW »