Author Topic: Treason...  (Read 908 times)

Offline Udie

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Treason...
« on: December 21, 2001, 04:35:00 PM »
Article III section 3, US constitution.

 Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

 The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture exept during the Life of the Person attainted.



 I have no idea what the last paragraph means, but from the first part I think we have enough to convict Lohn Walker of treason.  We have a CIA agent who can testify against him, I'm sure there's another witness we could find from that prison fight too, Mike Spann would have made 2 for sure.

 debate.....  :)

Offline Karnak

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Treason...
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2001, 04:55:00 PM »
Were we at war with the Taliban when John Walker joined them?

Its an academic question in any case, based on statements he has made I doubt he would have been anything other than overjoyed to support them against us.

I'm just curious.
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Offline midnight Target

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Treason...
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2001, 05:05:00 PM »
What exactly did the CIA agent WITNESS?

Offline Udie

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Treason...
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2001, 05:09:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak:
Were we at war with the Taliban when John Walker joined them?

Its an academic question in any case, based on statements he has made I doubt he would have been anything other than overjoyed to support them against us.

I'm just curious.

 He's not Taliban, he's Al Queda.  At least he said so on the CNN interview.  His group was given to the Taliban to help, they were even called "the helpers".  I doubt it matters when he joined as he didn't quit them when we went to war with them, which is what he should have done as an American.

 My personal opinion is that he should serve 15 or 20 yrs in prison. With NO time off for good behavior.  I'm probobly in the minority on this.  There is another thought in my head that he deserves the same thing as McVeigh.  These kind of decisions are the reason I'd never  want to hold public office.

 Tah Gut,

 I have no idea, that's an assumption on my part.  Though, I did see a video of the surving CIA agent making his escape over the wall after the revolt had started.  So he might have seen something.

[ 12-21-2001: Message edited by: Udie ]

Offline capt. apathy

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Treason...
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2001, 05:45:00 PM »
Quote
The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture exept during the Life of the Person attainted.

 
basicly as i read it it says congress can set any punishment for treason. however family members cant be punished for the crimes, and property can't be seized once the offender has died

Offline Jack55

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Treason...
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2001, 06:01:00 PM »
I've heard that he knew about the attack on the WTC, and that he approved. If that is true, he knew he was a soldier in an organization fighting a war against the USA. The formal declaration of war by the USA is irrelavent.
Traitors get the rope.

Offline Karnak

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Treason...
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2001, 06:55:00 PM »
Quote
Traitors get the rope.

Actually, no, they get what the Government chooses they get.

The last spy we caught selling documents to our enemies didn't get the death penalty.

Whether Walker does or does not will be interesting to see.

I sincerely doubt that he knew of the WTC attacks before they occured.  As an American, and a recent convert to radical Islam, he must have been looked at with grave suspicion by his Al Queda superiors.  To inform him of those plans would have been seen as a massive security risk, and organizations like that don't survive by creating internal security risks.  In all likelyhood he was simply a "grunt" level Al Queda "soldier" and now wants to play up his importance for the purposes of his own ego.

That he approved of the attacks he has bluntly stated.

[ 12-21-2001: Message edited by: Karnak ]
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Offline Ratbo

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Treason...
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2001, 07:04:00 PM »
This is the legal quagmire...

Anyone can *say* they approved of the attacks - after the fact. That's protected speech, sick as it might be.


If he knew before the fact, there's another issue then and we could prolly get him on that.

As for the fighting thing, it could be tricky. His lawyers will claim the was a combatant for the Taliban VS the Northern Alliance.  The fact that the US was aiding and abetting the Northern Alliance might not add up to the standards that need to be met.

But there's gotta be a way to fry his bellybutton if we look hard enough.  <EG>

-W

 
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak:


I sincerely doubt that he knew of the WTC attacks before they occured.  As an American, and a recent convert to radical Islam, he must have been looked at with grave suspicion by his Al Queda superiors.  To inform him of those plans would have been seen as a massive security risk, and organizations like that don't survive by creating internal security risks.  In all likelyhood he was simply a "grunt" level Al Queda "soldier" and now wants to play up his importance for the purposes of his own ego.

That he approved of the attacks he has bluntly stated.

[ 12-21-2001: Message edited by: Karnak ]

Offline Dinger

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Treason...
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2001, 07:13:00 PM »
Yeah, here's how it works:
Attaint of treason in common law used to bring forfeiture of property and corruption of blood.  Corruption of blood means that the attainted cannot inherit, nor can his or her heirs inherit; those properties revert to the holder of the fee, save the king's prerogative.
By the time of the drafting of the constitution, corruption of blood was becoming increasingly limited, and in the liberal mind of the time, this was viewed as a good thing.
So, in other words, congress can declare that the attainted lose all property and all rights to inheritance, but any heirs of the attainted can only be held from property or inheritance during the natural life of the attainted.

Offline Jack55

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Treason...
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2001, 12:06:00 PM »
Spy games may be different, where information is paramount.  Dead men don't provide much information. I assure you, they would swing if the US voted on it democraticly, after a trial conviction of course.   What happened to the last American caught fighting US troops with a foreign military? I don't know of another case.

If most of the suicide attackers of 911 didn't know the target or details of the days attack until the last minute, it's safe to assume the American al Qaeda didn't either.  He knew afterwards he was fighting a WAR against the USA.  It has nothing to do with freedom of speach, but what he knew, and when he knew it.
Do you think he will be able to live in the USA again?  Not without constantly looking over his shoulder.

[ 12-22-2001: Message edited by: Jack55 ]

Offline Animal

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Treason...
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2001, 04:06:00 PM »
He joined the Taliban before 9/11, when they were not our enemies.
In fact, most Americans thought they were our pals. We grew up watching RAMBO fighting amongts the righteous and patriotic Afghans. The CIA helped them fight the evil Russians.

Offline 10Bears

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Treason...
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2001, 04:35:00 PM »
Dinger has it right...

The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture exept during the Life of the Person attainted.

Means you can't go after the family after the traders's dead.. In the old days the King would not only go after you for a crime, he'd bust down your whole family! So the reason the framers threw that in there  :).

This John Walker needs a haircut and a shave slapped into a new suit then forced to visit the President's Mom, Barbra Bush and explain himself  ;)

Give him 10 years for spitting on the sidewalk.. hey there was a least two wittnesses.
10Bears

Offline paintmaw

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Treason...
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2001, 03:50:00 PM »
odds are he will get a short jail term(5 yrs ) and out to join some other raghead faction

Offline eagl

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Treason...
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2001, 01:50:00 AM »
He won't survive in an open prison population, and he'll likely be under a suicide watch the whole time he's in custody.  I'd hang him, but that's just my worthless opinion.  Either way, he will never have an open life in the US.  Witness protection style identity changes might not even save him.  

If he gets a dime in a book deal, I'd like to shoot him myself.  His parents will probably get the book/movie deal and funnel the money to him though.  

After thinking of all the ways he and his parents could benefit financially from what he's done, I'm even more sure I prefer him to be deceased or otherwise completely unable to profit from his actions.  Life without parole comes to mind, as does giving him a shovel and making him spend the rest of his miserable life chained to a post digging through WTC debris.

The sad thing is, had he been captured and held by the very same people he was fighting for, they'd have publically tortured and killed him by now.  I have less than zero sympathy for him or anyone who supports his actions or the actions of the freaks he joined up with, and I really can't imagine anything happening to them that could be horrible enough cause me any sorrow or pity.    

The lesson to be learned is if you declare war on the US you're going to die, and the manner of your death will not be of your choosing.  Whether it's right or wrong, that's the way it's gonna be.  I take my orders from the President, not CNN or some spineless freaks from Marin County.
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline Fatty

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Treason...
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2001, 05:56:00 AM »
We all watched them blow up the Bhuddist momuments long before 9/11 Animal, as well as the yellow tags they were going to make non-muslims wear.  While you can probably find plenty of people completely ignorant of the entire situation, I would think someone going to fight alongside them (even one as dimwitted as Johnny Walker) would have at least a passing knowledge of the area.

There can be a case made we were not technically at war as it is not a war against a sovereignty, but if that route is taken a much stronger case can be made that Al Queda is very much at war with the US and has been openly since long before 9/11.


Aside from the technicality of formal war declaration, there are plenty of charges that could be brought against him that also allow a death penalty.