Author Topic: Integrity of Japanese planes  (Read 1858 times)

Offline straffo

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10029
Integrity of Japanese planes
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2006, 05:11:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Straffo: Only the prototype test 109Fs had problems with the tail. They fixed this by putting stiffener plates (this may not be the actual term) around the tail joint, and the problem went away.



I plead guilty your honor ... I was fully aware of this before posting :D

Offline Knegel

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 620
Integrity of Japanese planes
« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2006, 06:38:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by indy007
Compression effects on that huge wing pretty much wiped out any elevator authority. Electric dive brake kits were enroute to Europe to combat the problem, but the transport was sunk (iirc, in a friendly fire incident). The upgrade kits never made it :(


to the original thread, the Ki-84 (as we have it modeled) is freakin' amazing (with combat trim *off*) :) Any other planes that have a WEP timer that cools faster than it heats?


Hi,

was it realy possible to trim the P38 up at compression speed?

Afaik the pilots had to wait until the plane reached more thick air in lower level to get below its critical mach.

Krusty,

the P38 had a high aspectratio wing, wings with high aspect ratio tend to have a low critical mach speed. Since the P38 had a smal drag for its heavy wait, even with a 25° dive it did accelerate pretty fast into its critical mach, at least in high alt(above 20.000ft).

The P38L and a very smal number of P38J´s had the airbrakes.

Is the AH Ki-84 realy able to dive with a Temp and Spit14??

Greetings, Knegel

Offline Kev367th

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5290
Integrity of Japanese planes
« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2006, 06:47:54 AM »
Don't know if IRL it could dive with a Temp and Spit, but it did in AH2.

In fact it pulled away from my Spit 14, I had to throttle back as it was shaking like mad.
Rod367th was able to stay full throttle in the Tempest but wasn't gaining on him.

Only caught him once he pulled out on the deck and turned a few times. We were amazed, or I think it was more disbelief at what happened.

Just to clarify, this was a good 2 or 3 patches back, don't know if it's changed now.
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T
Asus M3N-HT mobo
2 x 2Gb Corsair 1066 DDR2 memory

Offline HoHun

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2182
Re: Integrity of Japanese planes
« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2006, 07:02:53 PM »
Hi Kweassa,

Have a look at this thread, too:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=1268

Not that I agree with all the conclusions, but it points out a dive speed of

- Ki-43-Ic: 280 kts (519 km/h)
- A6M2: 320 kts (592 km/h)

Both rather low figures, of couse.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline kamilyun

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1467
Integrity of Japanese planes
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2006, 10:41:37 PM »
Sorry if this has been repeated, but I couldn't read everyone's post...

The Japanese had a different philosophy about a pilot.  They emphasized personal skill almost to the point of acrobatics.  This influenced plane design and tactics.  So while I cannot comment on the specific structural integrites of various models, I think it is fair to say that Japanese planes were more manouverable at the expense of some other attribute (be it armor, armament or speed, etc..)

As several people have mentioned, quality control on the manufacturing coupled with limited availability of spare parts led to many structural failures and limited flying time for almost all models late in the war.  The NIK and Ki-84 both suffered landing gear problems.  I think I read as high as 25% attrition just due to landings for one of them.  I'll check my figures at home tonight.

Also, I believe that the Japanese did not have the rotation program.  A good pilot kept flying until he died or got captured.  American pilots rotated back home to train the next generation.  So Japanese pilots were generally less well trained than the American pilots by war's end.

I also think American tactics and engineering were evolving and improving during the war...i.e. things got better for us.  The Japanese planes were often grounded or flown by inexperienced pilots, so things were getting worse for them.  We are probably left with the memories of the end of the war, when things seemed to be going well for us.

Anyway, some generalizations, I know...but it's just how I read the judgements of Japanese vs. American planes...

Offline Slash27

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12796
Integrity of Japanese planes
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2006, 02:40:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Knegel
Is the AH Ki-84 realy able to dive with a Temp and Spit14??

Greetings, Knegel



I have alot of time in the AH Ki-84. I would have to say no, it can't.

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Integrity of Japanese planes
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2006, 08:16:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Why does a P38 lock up and need to be trimmed out of a dive?  



It's called Compressability.  Read up on it some time.




ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Integrity of Japanese planes
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2006, 08:23:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Knegel
Hi,

was it realy possible to trim the P38 up at compression speed?

Afaik the pilots had to wait until the plane reached more thick air in lower level to get below its critical mach.




In the early stages of compressability I'm sure it would be possible to give some positive elevator trim to help but once the Lightning has entered to a full compressability state then I would think trimming would be of little use.  Hence the introduction of dive flaps in the late J series and L model.


ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Debonair

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3488
Integrity of Japanese planes
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2006, 11:54:31 PM »
I think i remember reading something about control reversal at compression speeds.
what a time for a surprise

Offline Rolex

  • AH Training Corps
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3285
Integrity of Japanese planes
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2006, 12:46:42 AM »
I took this photo (with my cell phone, yuck) of this 52 a few days ago. I was surprised how fast the uniqueness of the skin dominates your  impression of the aircraft. No photograph can give you the same feeling.


Offline Krusty

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26745
Integrity of Japanese planes
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2006, 11:53:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
It's called Compressability.  Read up on it some time.

ack-ack


It's called a rhetorical question. The correct answer is: "That's just a by-product of the way it was made."

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
Integrity of Japanese planes
« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2006, 07:51:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rolex
I took this photo (with my cell phone, yuck) of this 52 a few days ago. I was surprised how fast the uniqueness of the skin dominates your  impression of the aircraft. No photograph can give you the same feeling.



Agreed. I have  seen several real zeros and it has a very unique skin texture, almost brittle in appreance as if were beaten out of a piece of cold iron with a hammer.

Offline Knegel

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 620
Integrity of Japanese planes
« Reply #42 on: April 13, 2006, 12:30:42 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
In the early stages of compressability I'm sure it would be possible to give some positive elevator trim to help but once the Lightning has entered to a full compressability state then I would think trimming would be of little use.  Hence the introduction of dive flaps in the late J series and L model.


ack-ack


Hi,

yes, in theory maybe, but what trimsystem the P38 had? If the elevator got used for trim, like in many other WWII planes, i doubt it was possible to trim, cause the forces are simply to high(its not much more than pulling the stick back).
Was there a powerfull trimservo, or could the P38 get trimmed by moving the whole vertical stab(similar to modern Jets, what would allow a highspeed trim)?

Greetings, Knegel

Offline Debonair

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3488
Integrity of Japanese planes
« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2006, 03:36:09 AM »

would be pretty tough to design a flying tail with that arrangment, even for teh Kelly Johnson

Offline Cr0ssEye

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Integrity of Japanese planes
« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2006, 11:56:29 AM »
This is a great post. I fly the Jap planes alot and reading this I believe
will help me to exploit their strengths and avoid their weaknesses.
Thank you