Author Topic: Bombs/rockets vs GV's  (Read 4247 times)

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #90 on: December 13, 2005, 06:49:55 PM »
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Originally posted by Bruno
There's a whole host of reasons why hitting tanks with bombs in AH is 'easier then real life' but this is a game, so who cares.

That is true, mostly due to the absolutely suicidal way in which people will attack GVs as crashing and dying doesn't have anything like the penalty in reality.  Also due to the ability to release weapons at angles and speeds that would not have been safe for these aircraft to actually do so.
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I will say that in the past most referred to the bomb crater as an indication of where they hit. This method was proven to be inaccurate. Search the old posts.

In the one case I am refering to I dropped the two bombs out of my Mossie's bomb bay in a 60 degree dive.  One of them exploded next to the Tiger and the other resulted in a hit sprite on the Tiger.  After that strike the Tiger remained fully fuctional.
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Offline Morpheus

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« Reply #91 on: December 13, 2005, 06:51:50 PM »
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Originally posted by Bruno
Your stupid film is representative of anything...

The stuka propaganda film you linked is a propaganda film that has been edited, watch the tank destruction sequence again...

Follow the bomb, it jumps from 'behind tree' to a static tank to moving tanks...'

Do even know the source of that film?

You film wasn't worth mentioning...


what the hell made the tanks jump 5 feet in the air then roll over on their turret? What? Wait wait I know. They hit one of those magic shrubs we have in Aces High that will send tons of iron flying through the air. Yes im sure of it now. Thats got to be it.

You are one ignorant, arrogant sob Bruno. Stop trolling with your slim.


No watermelon genious, it was propaganda film of acutall combat killing russian troops. But that makes it fictional? Hardly. You need to get a grasp on reality son.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2005, 06:54:27 PM by Morpheus »
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Offline Bruno

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« Reply #92 on: December 13, 2005, 07:18:11 PM »
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You are one ignorant, arrogant sob Bruno. Stop trolling with your slim.


What I am is 100% correct...

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No watermelon genious, it was propaganda film of acutall combat killing russian troops. But that makes it fictional? Hardly. You need to get a grasp on reality son.


It is fictional, it is pieced together from various german news reels. But that's here-nor-there. If you read everything I wrote I said:

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The most effective way in stopping armor was for air power to hit the soft skin support vehicles. The amount of wehrmacht armor abandoned or destroyed by German tanks crews was far more substantial then any losses from the air.

The same was true in the east. Il2s and other VVS ground attack aircraft had little success in destroying large numbers mbts. What they did do is stop supplies and support from reaching the battlefield. the term is 'battle interdiction' and this was the primary focus of almost all ground attack aircraft. Even the Gustav series stukas only had limited success against mbts. They were a few exception pilots but for the most part the 'tank busting stuka' was as much a failure as the Hs 129. The Stukas roll in WW2 was primarily battlefield interdiction.


Despite all you nonsense what have you posted that contradicts that?

Offline ramzey

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« Reply #93 on: December 13, 2005, 07:36:19 PM »
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tigers-02.htm


This is about this flipped tigers
The 3rd company was caught in a bombing attack in July 1944, and all of its Tigers were destroyed or damaged. On 9 September 1944, sPzAbt 503 was completely equipped with 45 new Tiger II Bs.

Offline Bodhi

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« Reply #94 on: December 13, 2005, 07:46:28 PM »
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Originally posted by Bruno
Give us your numbers and sources then?

How many died of what causes?

I posted in detail about several studies that looked into tanks losses by air, all you have posted is incorrent information Wittman (typhoon rockets, which was the product Mr. Varin's research and has been fully discredited) and stupid emoticons...


You are full of crap Bruno.

Take off the leather undies and get realistic.  You honestly can not believe the caca del toro that you are trying to peddle.  That tanks were never taken out from the air?

What a waste of time you are.
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Offline Karnak

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« Reply #95 on: December 13, 2005, 07:57:41 PM »
Bodhi,

He didn't say "never" and he is right that aircraft were not terribly successful against MBTs.  They did destroy some, but the effort it took to per kill of an MBT was very disproportianal to the effects air power could have on the lighter vehicles.  And the Il-2s, P-47s and Typhoons ripped the hell out of those.  By destroying the ability to support the tanks airpower did, indirectly, heavily negate the impact of German MBTs on the Allied advances in the East and West.
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Offline Bruno

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« Reply #96 on: December 13, 2005, 08:24:53 PM »
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That tanks were never taken out from the air?


Quote where I said that...

I posted battlefield studies, I gave you a reference to best researched book on the subject by Dr. Ian Gooderson, I posted a link to an article of his as well. You posted nothing but idiocy.

German Tanks found on the battlefield were examined, few were found to have been directly 'taken out by' bomb and/or rockets'. If you can't except that then disprove it Mr. 'Research'... Post something credible that disproves it.

BTW this subject has been covered to death on thsi forum. If the original poster in really interested in the answers then a search of those old threads would do some good, regardless of what Neal and Bob say...

Offline Morpheus

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« Reply #97 on: December 13, 2005, 09:18:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bruno
Quote where I said that...

I posted battlefield studies, I gave you a reference to best researched book on the subject by Dr. Ian Gooderson, I posted a link to an article of his as well. You posted nothing but idiocy.

German Tanks found on the battlefield were examined, few were found to have been directly 'taken out by' bomb and/or rockets'. If you can't except that then disprove it Mr. 'Research'... Post something credible that disproves it.

BTW this subject has been covered to death on thsi forum. If the original poster in really interested in the answers then a search of those old threads would do some good, regardless of what Neal and Bob say...


Dude, listen to me very carfuly. No one here is saying that the majority of tanks where taken out by bombs. What we are saying is that they WERE infact taken out by bombs and rockets as well as ground fire. Are you that thick headed that you cannot get that through you skull?
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Offline Bodhi

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« Reply #98 on: December 13, 2005, 09:43:14 PM »
Bruno.

Read this regarding Wittman's death.

After fighting the remains of Wittmann and his crew were buried beside what was left of their Tiger, without any markings. Until 1983, the destruction of Wittman's Tiger was an mystery even for crews of sSSPzAbt 101. Many sources say that it was destroyed by the "Firefly Ambush", but different units claimed to ambush and destroy Wittmann's Tiger, including those of the either 1st Polish Armoured Division, 4th Canadian Armoured Division (Canadian Shermans supposedly surrounded and shot Wittmann's Tiger to pieces) or 33rd British Independent Armored Brigade. In the memoirs of a former member Mr.F.R of sSSPzAbt 101, official version at the time stated that Wittmann's Tiger was destroyed by an airplane bomb. Both presented a picture of Wittmann's Tiger without its turret with the gun barrel placed on the hull which in fact is the picture of SS-Untersturmführer Alfred Günther's Tiger destroyed by an airplane bomb at Evrecy. Along with those two versions, some claims were made that units which were not even present in the area at the time, were responsible for destroying Wittmann's Tiger. Both versions were proven wrong in 1945, by Mr.Serge Varin who found Tiger #007. Mr.Varin was interested in this tank because its turret was teared away from the hull. Mr.Varin examined Wittmann's Tiger and noticed that it was not penetrated by any shells fired at it during the fighting. The only damage to the hull was a big hole in the rear, near the engine deck. further examination Mr.Varin concluded that the impact came from the air. The rocket hit Tiger's rear deck (made of 25mm thick armor), penetrated the air intakes and exploded causing the explosion in the engine compartment and fighting compartment which ignited the stored ammunition. The second explosion instantly killed the entire crew and blew off the turret into the air. Wittmann's Tiger was destroyed by a rocket fired from a Royal Air Force Hawker "Typhoon" MkIB - attack aircraft. Typhoons were armed with HE (High-explosive) rockets and took heavy tow of German tanks during the Normandy battles (for example on August 8th of 1944, Typhoons destroyed 135 German tanks and among those Tiger #007). Michael Wittmann and his crew was killed in action on August 8th of 1944, at Gaumesnil near Cintheaux. In March of 1983, the unmarked field grave of Tiger #007's crew was discovered during the construction of the road and was excavated. It was possible to identify the remains by Wittmann's dental records and Heinrich Reimers's (driver) identification tag. Wittmann and his crew was then officially buried in the German Military Cemetery of "De La Cambe" in Normandy, France. That event had fully proven the exact location of Wittmann's Tiger and its fate as previosly suggested by Mr.Varin.

Still want to argue how his tank was taken out?

And to further what Morph said, we are not arguing that killing a tank from the air was not hard.  We are arguing that it happened on a fairly common basis.  I still believe it was ground combat which took out more tanks than not, but I do believe that the tanks suffered fair amounts of losses to airpower.
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Offline Bruno

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« Reply #99 on: December 13, 2005, 09:51:06 PM »
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No one here is saying that the majority of tanks where taken out by bombs. What we are saying is that they WERE infact taken out by bombs and rockets as well as ground fire.


You and your girlfriend are the ones that should read more carefully, dude. I never said no tank was ever killed by a rocket or bomb. What I said was (quoted for you once again):

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The most effective way in stopping armor was for air power to hit the soft skin support vehicles. The amount of wehrmacht armor abandoned or destroyed by German tanks crews was far more substantial then any losses from the air.

The same was true in the east. Il2s and other VVS ground attack aircraft had little success in destroying large numbers mbts. What they did do is stop supplies and support from reaching the battlefield. the term is 'battle interdiction' and this was the primary focus of almost all ground attack aircraft. Even the Gustav series stukas only had limited success against mbts. They were a few exception pilots but for the most part the 'tank busting stuka' was as much a failure as the Hs 129. The Stukas roll in WW2 was primarily battlefield interdiction.


The sources I provided clearly confirm what I said. If you now agree with that then great.

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #100 on: December 13, 2005, 09:53:45 PM »
Bodhi,

The problem I have with that take on it is that Wittman's tank was destroyed near midnight.  I have never heard of any Allied fighter-bombers using rockets in close support at night.  It strikes me as an excessively suicidal thing to do.

I think it is more likely that Mr. Varin missed the damage that destroyed the tank.
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Offline Bruno

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« Reply #101 on: December 13, 2005, 10:22:04 PM »
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Mr.Serge Varin who found Tiger #007.


I already pointed that Mr. Varin's version has been discredited yet here you go posting Varin...

quoting this website:

Michael Wittmann is hardly en example of 'indepth research'...

If you look into a bit more you will find several versions, First British Shermans, then a bomb, then Mr Varin's claim of rocket firing Typhoons then finally that Wittman's tank was destryoyed by "A" Squadron of Northamptonshire Yeomanry Canadian (mix of shermans and 1 Firefly).  

The ONLY version of Wittmann's loss  that can seemingly be substantiated with facts is that he WAS knocked out by 2 shots to his right rear flank by a single Sherman Firefly belonging to Sgt. Gordon (gunner; Trooper Joe Ekins), from 3.Plt., A.Sqn., 33.Arm. Bgd., 1.Northamptonshire Yeomanry. He and the other Tigers with him were caught totally unaware not realizing the British had taken up a flanking position so close by thinking the Poles ahead were their only concern.

This Firefly was hidden in a tree line with a troop of standard 75mm Shermans to Wittmann's starboard side, N.East of Gaumesnil as he moved north in command Tiger "007" (ex Heinz Von Westerhagen's, whom he had succeeded as Bttn.CO on July 10 when the former suffered complications to an earlier head wound, hence allowing Wittmann to inherit his Tiger).

Wittmann's was the last vehicle in the advance, through an open field parallel to the N158, toward the 1.Polish Arm.Div. reported to be ahead at Aignan de Cramesnil.

He did so along with 6 other Tigers, 5 of which were initially KO'd and 1 abandonned in this unexpected ambush, with the last KO'd a little later

(source: "TIC 2"; p.259 text, p.290 pic., + Agte; pp.423-433 text {p.425 in particular}, p.477 pic, + pp.182-183 "Panzers in Normandy - Then & Now {a little dated and still claiming 5 Shermans and only 4 Tigers}, + p.46-53 "After the Battle" mag no. 48 - "Michael Wittmann's Last Battle" - which even has transcripts of British I/C and radio traffic describing the incidents).

Agte's book describes the action concisely even down to recollections from Hans Höflinger who witnessed the hits into the side wall around the fuel tank area that initially lifted and displaced the turret onto the hull top, and began a fire, before ammo cooking off sent it skyward to its final resting place behind the vehicle. The penetrations and subsequent explosions instantly killed the crew (Agte p.425 & 429). The vehicle was obviously still moving when hit and the explosions have broken both tracks while it continued rolling off them till slewing to a halt some 20 metres further on.

There's pictures on the web you can find to look at for yourself.

Here's soem quotes:

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On p.425 Agte ()states:

"Hans Höflinger now describes the subsequent course of the attack from his experience: 'Then we drove off, Michel (sic) right of the road and I left, four others with Michel and the brother of Heinz Von Westernhagen with me. Approximately 800 meters to Michel's right there was a small wood which struck us as suspicious and which was to prove fateful to us. Unfortunately, we couldn't keep the wood under observation on account of our mission. We drove about one to one-and-a half kilometres, and then I received another radio message from Michel which only confirmed my suspicions about the wood. We began taking heavy fire from anti-tank guns and once again Michel called, but didn't complete the message. When I looked out to the left I saw that Michel's tank wasn't moving. I called him by radio but received no answer. Then my tank received a frightful blow and I had to order my crew to get out as it had already begun to burn fiercely. My crew and I dashed toward the rear and got through. I stopped to look around and to my dismay discovered that five of our tanks had been knocked out. The turret of Michel's tank was displaced to the right and tilted down somewhat. None of his crew had got out. I climbed into Von Westernhagen's tank and, together with Heurich, whose Tiger was undamaged, tried to get to Michel's tank. We could not get through. Dr. Rabe also tried it, but in vain...I can state the exact time of the incident; it was 1255 hours, near the Falaise-Caen road in the vicinity of Cintheaux."

Agte then follows up on p.425 with the British account of the incident:

"...At 1240 hours Captain Boardman gave Sergeant Gordon's tank the order to fire. The Tigers were seven-hundred meters distant. The Firefly's gunner was Trooper Joe Ekins, who hit the rearmost Tiger of the three Tigers in his sight with two shots. The Tigers had failed to spot the well-camouflaged Shermans, and it was only after the first shots had been fired and a Tiger knocked out that Wittmann transmitted the message referred to by SS-Hauptscharfuhrer Höflinger: 'Move! Attention! Attention! Anti-tank guns to the right! - Back up!...'."

On p.425 "Höflinger described how, after it was hit, the turret of Wittmann's Tiger was displaced to the right and tilted forward. That was its condition immediately after the tank was knocked out. Furthermore it is absolutely certain that the turret was blown off shortly afterward by the force of the exploding ammunition - possibly accelerated by burning fuel in the fighting compartment - and thrown several meters away from the tank. This is confirmed by the only existing photo of 007, taken by a French civilian soon after the engagement. The Tiger therefore began to burn immediately after it was hit, which by then caused the ammunition in the turret to explode. Only the tremendous force produced by the exploding armour-piercing and high-explosive shells could have torn the turret, which weighed tonnes, from the hull and then tossed it meters through air. The crew must have been killed or incapacitated when the tank was hit. The subsequent explosion then extinguished any doubts as to the fate of the five men inside 007."

Hans Dollinger the battalion signals officer, and SS-Sturmmann Alfred Bahlo his Radio Op, also recount their experiences as the lead vehicle in the attack along a similar vein to Höflinger...and say on p.429 as they make their way back from their burning Tiger with the fatally wounded Obschf. Schott "...On the way we passed the knocked out panzer of Hauptsturmführer Wittmann; the turret was blown off."

Dr. Rabe also witnessed the hit and described it in a letter to Wittmann's wife to tell her the real story: "When the attack got rolling, I drove forward several hundred meters and covered the last stretch on foot. There was quite a lot of heavy anti-tank and artillery fire. I wanted to get to Michel's (sic) tank. When I got to within about 250 to 300 meters I saw flames suddenly shoot from the tank and the turret fly off and fall to the ground. The tank then burned out completely. I still tried to reach it, but I couldn't cross the open field as the Tommy fired at solitary me with their anti-tank guns. It is unlikely Michel got out before the hit, as I would have seen him. None of the remaining crew members came back either."

Agte sums up with the following:

After evaluating all available documents on the German and English sides and interviewing the handful of survivors of this action..., one can only assume that the tank that was hit at 1247 hours, was 007. SS-Hauptsturmführer Dr.Rabe's account and the English war diary both mention that this was the only Tiger that blew up after being hit. The eight minute time discrepancy compared to that given in Höflinger's account is of little significance as the source of the error appears to be completely genuine and time discrepancies can never be ruled out. As well, Höflinger's account was written several weeks after the events in question; it is also thoroughly possible that the error in time might lie in he English war diary."


Now the rocket firing Typhoon version is that of Mr. Varin but there's no substantial evidence to support it. You can believe whatever you want but it's clear by those who have done the research that its far more likely then not that Wittman was killed by that Firefly...
« Last Edit: December 13, 2005, 10:31:35 PM by Bruno »

Offline Bruno

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« Reply #102 on: December 13, 2005, 10:26:06 PM »
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The problem I have with that take on it is that Wittman's tank was destroyed near midnight.


It wasn't at night. the reason Varin's claim was taken seriously for so long was that the visual evidence fit (or couldn't rule out a rocket strike). A local farmer reported that aircraft had at one point attacked  the tank and (IIRC) an unexploded rocket was found near by(wellin general area of the open field.

It is believed by the experts that these rocket attacks came later after Wittman's was already dead.


But eye witness testimony supports the Firefly...

Anyway this thread done been hijacked...
« Last Edit: December 13, 2005, 10:28:37 PM by Bruno »

Offline Morpheus

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« Reply #103 on: December 13, 2005, 10:55:16 PM »
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Originally posted by Bruno
I already pointed that Mr. Varin's version has been discredited yet here you go posting Varin...

quoting this website:

Michael Wittmann is hardly en example of 'indepth research'...





That is all over the web, in many different sites all saying the same thing from reports on his tiger. You can only dig so deap until what's being said is the same thing everywhere you look.

Why are you being such a smart ass? Up until today you hadnt put a single bit of thought into this topic. And even now you haven not addressed the topic at hand.

It doesnt have a dam thing to do with Wittmanns tiger. This thread is dealing with the damage ordnance had/has/and can do to armor.

You seem to be quite the know-it-all genious jack of all trades. While your at it, can you solve the mystery behind the Shroud of Turin for the rest of the world?

More than 60 years later and people are still arguing over two accounts on a single incident. Some agree with one, others agree with the other. Unless you were there, and saw Wittmanns tiger take killing blow, you might as well just shut up. Because what you're arguing is honestly a lost cuase. Personally, here, in this thread, it has nothing to do with anything.

What you still cant get through your thick arrogant skull is the fact that ordnance did have a great impact damage wise on armor when the two met face to face. This is not myth, hearsay, ledgend or whatever else you can cook up with... Its a fact. And if you are as learned as you say you are, you would know this.

Again, can you please stick to the topic of this thread please? Or is that too much to ask. You say bombs had no affect on tanks. (A rediculous statement at best) Prove that bombs had no affect on armor please. Because history is saying otherwise.
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Offline MOIL

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« Reply #104 on: December 13, 2005, 11:23:32 PM »
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Originally posted by Morpheus
I see what you're trying to get at, but. Atleast you have to land a plane!

Tracked Tiger, busted turret, no engine... M3 drives up to a tiger like a dynamite truck drives up to a dead bloated beached whale and with the push of a button.. Vuallha! All better. Atleast make the supplies so they can only fix one thing at a time.

1 box of supplies = 1 new track or 1 repaired dead engine, or 1 repaired dead turret... Or resupplied ammo.


That's a good idea, it's a bit more work and cooperation, but a good idea