Pentagon Breaks the Islam Taboo...

[lada]

Originally posted by Mustaine



that's amazing how correct wikipedia is on everything.

Yes it is. I were surprised as well.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/internet/12/15/wikipedia.ap/index.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4530930.stm

I guess its final blow for your ego, isnt it ?

[USHilDvl]

(..an aside:  Mustaine - with respect, but I think you're gonna' be wrong on this one.  I'm pretty certain that Christians, Jews and Muslims do, in fact, all worship the same God, as all are the 'Children of Abraham'.  Just watched a very reasonable and intelligent discussion on the subject with three theologians...one from each bunch...and they universally agreed on the point.  Which makes these internicine conflicts both more tragic and more repetitive than I like to think about.)

I have a serious question:  I was informed on more than one occasion that Islam is the only religion whose dogma mandates the killing of any person who wishes to leave the practice of Islam.  That is, only the Q'uran exhorts it's believers to visit punishment and death on any who 'stray'.  Some theologians have argued that this situation actually negates the definition of 'religion' as pertains to Islam, and makes it merely a very durable cult.

NOTE:  I AM NOT PRESENTING THESE STATEMENTS AS TRUE.  I simply ask in the hope that someone with very specific knowledge (not opinion) might be able to comment on the veracity of these ideas, and the realities behind them.  Best would be an actual Muslim person.  I suspect that these statements are accurate, provided you choose a specific interpretation of the Q'uran.  Like Christianity and Judaism, I think Islam has many 'sects', each with differing interpretations of meaning.  Does the Q'uran make such statements?  Are they subject to interpretation?  Are they from some discredited aspect of the faith?  Are there Islamic apologists who work to rationalize these ideas, or is the whole thing a fallacy?

I have a feeling that the only 'truths' any of us are sure of is that a) we don't really understand these people at all, b)  they really don't understand us, c)  there are enough lunatics to bathe everyone in blood for the forseeable future, and d)  I'm running out of patience for every last bit of suffering and death meeted out in the name of someone else's God, and I'm fed up with being measured by my religious choices.

Oh, yeah...I forgot one truth I'm sure will be pointed out by someone on this board...It's all our fault.

[lada]

Originally posted by USHilDvl
Some theologians have argued that this situation actually negates the definition of 'religion' as pertains to Islam, and makes it merely a very durable cult.

Well .. can you bring that "definition" overhere so we can discuss it.
Its quite wide spread in history of religions, that those who interpret it in "wrong" way shall be punished.
Just one of thousands of local sutch cases.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07584b.htm

[storch]

Originally posted by DoctorYO
Did you know that you as a christian worship the god of islam..
DoctorYo

actually you are wrong......again.   allah is batardization of the name of the sumarian moon god aliyah.   in reality as in worship of anything but the true God it is merely satanic worship that is being practiced.

[USHilDvl]

Lada...No, I won't "bring that definition here", since the question is 'How does Islam view those who would depart from the practice of the religion', not 'What is the definition of religion?'

More to the point, is how does the dogma of Islam treat this particular situation?

I'm also not really interested in rehashing all the ways that people use 'God' to justify their personal or national agendas.  I'm really as clear as I need to be on the history of brutality and vengence wreaked on 'wrong-thinkers' under the guise of religious purity.

The link you provided to the bio of Jan Hus is...interesting...but, I fail to see the relevance to my actual question.  Maybe I'm kinda' stupid, but what does he have to do with Q'uranic interpretation and dogma?  How does a Catholic Encyclopedia have any relevance to understanding Islamic motivation?  No offense to Catholics, but that's the last place I'd consider an unbiased and objective source on Islamic thought.

No...back to the actual point.  Does anyone have any practical and pertinent information as to this particular question?  I don't like being guilty of the same lack of understanding and bias that clearly leads so much suffering to begin with.

Rather than just haring off on another, unrelated tangent...I'd like to understand this particular issue.

Actually, this all kind of points to my self-described 'truths'...we really don't get each other much at all.

[Skilless]

It would be too easy to copy and paste a bunch of verses from the Quran that abvocate violence to infidels.  The fact of the matter is that you don't have to dig too deep into the Olde Testament to find lots of violence too.  The best thing to do is to read it for yourself and draw your own conclusion...

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/HolKora.html

The first one is neat because it offers 3 different translations which probably draws you closest to the true meaning of each verse.

[DoctorYO]

actually you are wrong......again. allah is batardization of the name of the sumarian moon god aliyah. in reality as in worship of anything but the true God it is merely satanic worship that is being practiced.

Sumerians (thats how its spelled) and Arabs are not the same people ...  lets clear that up...  their gods are different also..  Sumerians are mesopotamian, Arabs are desert nomads of the Saudi peninsula.  Very different people..  Its like calling latin / iberians = germanic...

Storch I think your just had your "walken moment"

I didn't mean to offend you..  just the facts here..  are you rebutting what I have described.

trash in english is "trash"..

trash in spanish is "basura".

they both mean the same thing.. though do to language they are not pronounced the same..(tower of babel) this can be said of a multitude words in many languages..

Just as yahweh, allah and god.. mean supreme creator or all powerful one to those who study monotheism.

if you dont see that, your a nutjob like these Immans putting out fatwas and other jibberish.. I think your above statement lends to why the religious right in america need to be kept in check as per the US constitution..  Your blunt style of reasoning our forefathers knew all too well from the church of england hence their seperation of church and state in our current form of governence over its people..


If it makes you feel better you could put out a AH fatwa for my destruction Rushdie style as some heathen..  

Seagoon didn't bite...



but Storch....



Storch   =  


DoctorYo


BTW this wasn't a fishing expedition or a hijack..  but when i see people so blatantly wrong I have to correct them..   you all worship the same god, what he's not big enough or powerful enough to quench your pious thirst as a whole, or do you claim exclusive ownership over him.. curious?

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Mustaine
do you know that is completely untrue?

It's not.  They even consider Jesus to be a prophet.



ack-ack

[Skilless]

This is a neat little page from one of the links above.  It is supposed to refute common misconceptions of Islam but in doing so it exposes a lack of understanding of freedom and equality as well as a lack of tolerance of other religions.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/notislam/misconceptions.html#HEADING1

It seems to me this article is full of double-speak and half-truths.  And much of the time is deliberately misleading.  For example, it proclaims that the Quran does not tolerate the killing of innocent women and children.  However, it doesn't explain that infidels (those outside of Islam) cannot be innocent.

[firbal]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
Arent the IRA Catholics?

Don't go there. It may looks like it was between differant member of  Christian Churchs, but it was not that.
It divided that way from the simple fact that the Irish are Catholics. The Protantants are desenants of those who came over from Britain. It could almost be looked at like a race war. But the modern IRA is not the old IRA who took on the Brits for Independance in the '20s. The modern IRA is mostly an Communist group.
And how do I know this? I lived in Ireland for 2 years in the 70's. I've seen written demands posted in Dublin. And talking to a couple of people who were involved till they had an change of heart. The IRA were also involve in undercover activites against the Republic of Ireland. Again talking from same friends.

[Saintaw]

Originally posted by lada
indeed you never think... coz you are missing some sort of equipment to do so

what are doing during xmas mate ? What about littla orel ganging saw in brusel..
can you imagine dinner and breakfast with ME ?

Please leave the gay innuendos outside... I no longer live in Brussels, and I answered you by email. The only point in my answer here is that I want to make  a point about the breakfast thing...

[Samiam]

"Islam is an ideological engine of war (Jihad)," concludes the sensitive Pentagon briefing paper. And "no one is looking for its off switch."

So our answer is to take down the only secular government in the middle of the problem so that it can be replaced by a theologically motivated one?

By this logic, no matter how horrible a dictator Sadam was, the US had no coice but to support him as the non-Islamic force in the region.

There is a pure hypocrisy at play here:

Do American interests trump the self determination of  those in the middle east, and is Islam itself a threat? If so, the Iraq war was a complete mistake - even if there were WMDs. We should have continued to do every thing in our power to strengthen Sadam's stabilizing influence on the region.

You cannot simultaneously support the war in Iraq based on ultruistic arguments ("Sadam was an evil dictator") AND hold the position that Islam is fundamentally evil.

If Islam is, at it's core, evil and a threat to the US, then both the people of Iraq and the world at large were all better off under Sadam.

Which is it, Seagoon? Did Bush make a colosal mistake that served to undermine Christianity, or is an Islamic Iraq more likely to be peacefull and supportive of the US than a secular dictator?

[Momus--]

Originally posted by storch
a millinea and a half of on the job training isn't enough for you?  amazing!!!

Originally posted by Masherbrum
The Egyptians held the Hebrews as slaves for 5,000+ years.   Now go on another "Forum Obscurity Lull".

Karaya

All mouth and no trousers as usual. Why argue the point when you can resort to non-sequiturs?

Answer me this. If mainstream Islam and every one of a billion and a half muslims on the planet are a such an impending threat to your security and way of life to the extent characterised in the OP, and if indeed the government is increasingly aware of the threat to the degree portrayed in the article above, then why is your administration happy to tip billions in cash down the u-bend in Iraq creating a largely islamic government yet can't even spend a small fraction of that amount in securing your southern border which year on year continues to leak like a sieve to the benefit of economic migrants or potential terrorists alike?

Either your national security apparatus is dangerously incompetent or they do not share your assessment of the threat.

[Dowding]

Don't go there. It may looks like it was between differant member of Christian Churchs, but it was not that.
It divided that way from the simple fact that the Irish are Catholics. The Protantants are desenants of those who came over from Britain. It could almost be looked at like a race war. But the modern IRA is not the old IRA who took on the Brits for Independance in the '20s. The modern IRA is mostly an Communist group.
And how do I know this? I lived in Ireland for 2 years in the 70's. I've seen written demands posted in Dublin. And talking to a couple of people who were involved till they had an change of heart. The IRA were also involve in undercover activites against the Republic of Ireland. Again talking from same friends.

Catholics were still killing protestants and vice versa for ideological, sectarian reasons. That can't be denied.

[Momus--]

Originally posted by storch
actually you are wrong......again.   allah is batardization of the name of the sumarian moon god aliyah.   in reality as in worship of anything but the true God it is merely satanic worship that is being practiced.

Source for this claim?

AFAIK christians and jews native to the middle-east have all at one time or another used the term Allah to refer to the judeo-christian god. Etymologically speaking, it literally just means "the God", i.e. the one god, a specifically montheistic construct.

The sumerian moon god was called Nanna by the way.