Two thing about killing CVs

[sullie363]

First, can we get more perks for killing CVs please.  I killed one tonight in a PT and got 2.33 perks.  Something about that seems odd.

Also, I know this one has been said before, but could whoever kills the CV get system recognition.  joesmith sunk C14 in a P40B of The Dentists

[Oleg]

Not before CV will require direct bomb hit to take any significant damage, please. CV killing is absurdly easy now, dont deserve credits imho

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

I agree, it should not be possible to do anything NEAR fatal damage to any thing other than a freighter or troop transport with aircraft guns.

However, I do think AH II should have 2K# armor piercing bombs available for those planes that could carry them, and they should do appropriate damage to ships. It took 3-4 2K# bombs to sink the Japanese carriers at Midway.

It should be nearly impossible to hit MOVING ships with level bombers. Especially from high altitudes. It is not in AH II. I'm a lousy bomber pilot and even I can do it when I have a little patience. So formations of any heavy bomber shouldn't be hitting any of the ships and sinking them except on one in a million luck shots.

Heavily damaged ships should not continue to operate as if they are undamaged. As it is currently, they only lose guns and/or radar. Hits from guns larger than 5", or by bombs larger than 500# should stop or at least restrict or hinder flight operations, and should slow the ships significantly. However, it should require bombs over 500# or multiple hits from guns larger than 8" to knock out guns that are armored, such as 5" and 8" turrets.

As to "getting your name in lights", if it were modeled correctly, no one would be sinking a large ship by themselves, because too many bombs would be required. It would take 3-4 fighters (the F4U, the P-38, and the P-47 were all rigged to carry 2 2K# bombs during their operational deployment) operating as a group to put 3-4 2K# bombs on a ship, so no one pilot would get credit. It would take at least 4-6 dive bombers as they have only one bomb each. The heavy level bombers shouldn't be hitting the ships that well anyway. So there would be no single pilots sinking large ships, so no one would "get their name in lights".

Ship and field guns have at least one flaw in their system as well. You get credit for landing, and "your name in lights" if the ship is sunk or the gun destroyed. You should be as dead as any pilot when his plane is destroyed if you are in a gun that is destroyed. And if you didn't get out before the ship was sunk or the gun destroyed, you didn't "land". So you don't deserve "your name in lights". A pilot facing a ship or a ground gun is risking a death, the person manning the gun is risking nothing. Hardly a fair exchange.

[Hornet33]

As far as level bombers hitting a CV, it's not that hard when the ship is going in a straight line. Of course when you turn it so it doesn't get hit by bombers everyone starts screaming to stop turning the CV so they can take off. Real life it was hard to hit a ship with a level bomber BECAUSE the ships were turning all over the place. Not so here. Also in real life they didn't conduct flight operations while the ship was under attack. Here the AAA doesn't hurt you when taking off, and people like to drive the ship right up next to a base. Why??? Because it would take to long to fly a strike from a CV if it was 100 miles from the target, like real life.

[APDrone]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts

However, I do think AH II should have 2K# armor piercing bombs available for those planes that could carry them, and they should do appropriate damage to ships. It took 3-4 2K# bombs to sink the Japanese carriers at Midway.
....
It should be nearly impossible to hit MOVING ships with level bombers. Especially from high altitudes. It is not in AH II. I'm a lousy bomber pilot and even I can do it when I have a little patience. So formations of any heavy bomber shouldn't be hitting any of the ships and sinking them except on one in a million luck shots.

Did they change history?  The books I have specify that the SBDs that sank the Japanese Carriers at Midway did it with 1000 lb bombs.

Besides, the SBD is only rated for 1,600 lbs ord. on the fuselage mount.

As far as hitting moving ships?  It's no different that shooting at aircraft.  You pick a point in space ( here, one coordinate just happens to be zero ) and time your bombs to be in that space the same time the ship is.

It's up for the ship's commander to make every effort to guess where that point in space is and not be there when the bombs arrive.

[Oleg]

Originally posted by Hornet33
As far as level bombers hitting a CV, it's not that hard when the ship is going in a straight line. Of course when you turn it so it doesn't get hit by bombers everyone starts screaming to stop turning the CV so they can take off.

Turning CV dont help much. It makes just a bit harder to hit CV , nothing more.

Originally posted by Hornet33
Real life it was hard to hit a ship with a level bomber BECAUSE the ships were turning all over the place.

Wrong. Even ships at anchor was very hard targets for level bombers. Tirpitz is best example of it.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by APDrone
Did they change history?  The books I have specify that the SBDs that sank the Japanese Carriers at Midway did it with 1k bombs.

Besides, the SBD is only rated for 1,600 lbs ord. on the fuselage mount.

As far as hitting moving ships?  It's no different that shooting at aircraft.  You pick a point in space ( here, one coordinate just happens to be zero ) and time your bombs to be in that space the same time the ship is.

It's up for the ship's commander to make every effort to guess where that point in space is and not be there when the bombs arrive.

Woops, I typed that wrong, missed the 1 and hit the 2.

I never said the SBD should carry a 2K# bomb, but rather that some fighters carried them, and they should be modeled.

In fact, the Japanese planes should have the bombs the Japanese made from naval shells.

The reason I brought the 2K# bomb into the thread is because we supposedly have Essex class carriers, by most measures they are tougher than the Japanese carriers, and require more or heavier bombs.

With regards to hitting moving ships, that was mentioned with the intent towards heavy level bombers bombing from altitude. Few if any ships were hit or sunk by level heavy bombers. Back to Midway, since we both mentioned it. How many hits did the B-17's get at Midway? I can't remember a single incident off hand where a heavy level bomber sank a carrier or a battleship, or even a heavy cruiser. It happens WAY too often in AH II. In AH II, heavy level bombers hit easily from altitude on turning ships, and they also bomb from well within range of the AAA of the task group, nevermind the fact that they divebomb.

Regrets for the confusion.

[APDrone]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
I never said the SBD should carry a 2K# bomb, but rather that some fighters carried them, and they should be modeled.

In fact, the Japanese planes should have the bombs the Japanese made from naval shells.

The reason I brought the 2K# bomb into the thread is because we supposedly have Essex class carriers, by most measures they are tougher than the Japanese carriers, and require more or heavier bombs.

With regards to hitting moving ships, that was mentioned with the intent towards heavy level bombers bombing from altitude. Few if any ships were hit or sunk by level heavy bombers. Back to Midway, since we both mentioned it. How many hits did the B-17's get at Midway? I can't remember a single incident off hand where a heavy level bomber sank a carrier or a battleship, or even a heavy cruiser. It happens WAY too often in AH II. In AH II, heavy level bombers hit easily from altitude on turning ships, and they also bomb from well within range of the AAA of the task group, nevermind the fact that they divebomb.

Regrets for the confusion.

I just mentioned the loadout for the SBD in case you did think they carried 2k bombs.  No offense intended.

The Soryu was sunk with 3 hits, the Akagi with 2, and Kaga took 4.    The main reason was because their lower decks were crammed with extra ordnance lying around as they were swapping between land attack loadouts vs. naval attack loadouts.  It was a literal powder keg that only took a couple 'small' bombs to set off the fatal chain reactions. The Hiryu took 8 before going down later on. Now, whether some of those were overkill is for history to decide.

And you're right... the B17s did not score a single hit on an enemy ship of any type during the battle of Midway.  Keep in mind, though.. those ships had full time captains in charge with accurate spotters who all had a single common goal we don't have in AH.  Their lives were at stake.

Hook up 50KV charge to my flight chair when I'm Captain of a CV, and you can be dang sure I'll be taking evasives when bombers are overhead.

I've nailed CVs that have failed to move, and I've been with formations that laid out nice patterns to cover CVs that did move.  I have also missed because some onery cuss decided to turn them too.

[Midnight]

Having CVs in AH right now is IMO stupid. They might as well just be a mobile AAA platform with the ability to spawn fighters and PTs.

The way they operate is NOT historical or even close to accurate

The way they function in the game from a damage model perspective is NOT historical or even close to accurate

[APDrone]

Originally posted by Midnight
Having CVs in AH right now is IMO stupid. They might as well just be a mobile AAA platform with the ability to spawn fighters and PTs.

The way they operate is NOT historical or even close to accurate

The way they function in the game from a damage model perspective is NOT historical or even close to accurate

Oh pshaw, Midnight.

You just don't like them because you can't launch Mustangs from them..



Oh.. and Mustangs tend to disintegrate when near the 5" puffies.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

I took no offense, I knew none was intended.

The battle of Midway shows that we got lucky. At least 3 of the 4 Japanese carriers were hit during refuel/rearm action, they were almost certainly doomed by any hit. I'm not sure that even 4 hits by 1K# bombs would have sunk them as easily, if at all, were they not rearming and refuleing.

As I mentioned, currently we have Essex class carriers, by most accounts considerably tougher than the Japanese carriers. Therefore I'd expect to NEED the 2K# bombs, and also the Japanese bombs they made from naval shells.

Midnight is correct, they don't operate anything like a real carrier. SOME of the concessions are acceptable. It would be near impossible to make true flight ops work in the game, with the carrier turned into the wind for flight ops, and limited launch and recovery times available. Others aren't, like full flight ops available until the carrier sinks, and full speed available as well.

[APDrone]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts


Midnight is correct, they don't operate anything like a real carrier. SOME of the concessions are acceptable. It would be near impossible to make true flight ops work in the game, with the carrier turned into the wind for flight ops, and limited launch and recovery times available. Others aren't, like full flight ops available until the carrier sinks, and full speed available as well.

The problem with starting to limit things is .. where does it end?  If  CV flight ops are reduced due to damage, does the same apply to bomb craters on land bases?  Talk about reality.. All aircraft at a field were parked outside or in some revetment or under camouflage or similar.. but they were limited.  All A/C would be able to be detroyed by jabos or stafing.. And, of course, there's the silly little death thing..

Treat it like Icons, night, tracers, and every other reality tweak that has been requested.  Try it out in the CT.. see that not enough people want it, then relegate it to the scenarios and special events, where you will find the closest thing to reality.

Keep in mind that CV operations are on people's mind right now because the map we've been on for the last week uses them as a vital role ( THANK YOU HTC!!   )

When Mindanou, or Trinity, or .. gulp.. Pizza, or several of the other maps return, the CV will not be such a vital tool and the land vs. land fights can continue on.

Ohhh... and back to the original thread, I think more perks should be awarded for sinking CVs too.  And credit, but with a list of all who contributed.

[Hornet33]

Originally posted by Oleg
Wrong. Even ships at anchor was very hard targets for level bombers. Tirpitz is best example of it.

The Tirpitz raid was conducted by 2 specialized squadrons of Lancasters dropping single "tall boy" bombs, and it was sunk by level bombers when it was all said and done. What would have happened if the Allies had sent in conventional bombers with 500lbrs and salvo'ed them all off on the thing? The odds would have been better for multiple hits and more damage. The Brits choose to do it with the Lancasters with the tall boys to prove that pinpoint accuracy was possible with heavy bombers. Just watched a program on Discovery Wings about this raid a few weeks back.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

We already have limits. All kinds of limits.

If you destroy the fighter hangars on a field, no fighters launch, but the field still exists and launches bombers and gv's. Same for any other type of hangar. NOT the same for carriers. And maybe craters on the runway SHOULD affect flight ops. So you blow the elevator out of the well on a carrier and it stops planes from launching, just like it would if you leveled some hangars (all of one sort or antoher). That would make it the SAME as an airfield. Where's the problem?

Should you get perks for a carrier? Sure. How many? Don't know. Maybe NONE if you sink them with a diving heavy level bomber (or strafe it down with a 110), and no other credit either.

[APDrone]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
We already have limits. All kinds of limits.

If you destroy the fighter hangars on a field, no fighters launch, but the field still exists and launches bombers and gv's. Same for any other type of hangar. NOT the same for carriers. And maybe craters on the runway SHOULD affect flight ops. So you blow the elevator out of the well on a carrier and it stops planes from launching, just like it would if you leveled some hangars (all of one sort or antoher). That would make it the SAME as an airfield. Where's the problem?

 

You're right. If you blow out the deck elevator then, yes.. launching would essentially be down until it can be repaired.

Same goes with the arrestor cables and boilers.. reduce max speed until repairs are made. ( resupply? )

That could interesting, as if you lost speed, then you've just removed heavy F4Us from the launch rotation.. they need every bit of runway to launch as it is.

Ok.. I recant my global 'don't change it' statement.  I can see restricted operations being valid 'enhancements'.

Damn.. now I need to go kick my cat..