Author Topic: The most Uber plane ever!  (Read 2667 times)

Offline Crumpp

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3671
The most Uber plane ever!
« Reply #45 on: December 27, 2005, 10:08:26 PM »
Quote
This statement is totally inacurate for the first 2 years of the war


The statement was not made about the first two years of the war.  The training hours and flying hours are posted.  It was in answer to Guppy's statement about the ratio's being unanswerable.  Simply examine the kill to sortie ratios.

Quote
Heck the germans called the brits formations the "row of idiots" due to their tactics..time changed all that.


True. All airforces soon adopted the same section tactics the Germans developed in Spain.

Quote
german had all the experienced flyers at first from what ive read..they were beat by attrition and allies gaining experience....how many german aces were there having ridiculous ridiculous amount of kills?


The Germans did not rotate their personnel.  A German pilot flew until the war ended, he was too severly wounded to fly anymore, or he was killed.

Like many German pilots Oscar Boesch flew from the day the war started until the day it ended.  Like the vast majority of German pilots he got only a handful of kills, 13 confirmed.  There are many factors that go into making an "experten" or an "ace".  The frequency one encounters the enemy is one big factor.  The German pilots lived in a "target rich" enviroment.  Almost every time they flew, they saw enemy aircraft.  Allied pilots, due to their vast numerical superiority, could go a whole tour with only a few encounters with the enemy.

If you examine the numbers of encounters with the enemy to the number of kills, the Luftwaffe "Experten" were far from the "superpilots" of popular myth.  They simply had far more chances to shoot down enemy aircraft.  With the exception of a few shining stars, most of them have an average kill to sortie ratio with several allied aces surpassing them.

Quote
if u were to say a ratio of german pilots to the ratio of allied pilots having experience maybe..lotta variables...


Just like most airforces, the "Experten" form about 1 percent of the total German fighter pilot force.

The 8th USAAF Fighter Groups had a saying, "Fly five and stay alive."  It took between 5-6 encounters with the enemy for a pilot to develop his Situational Awareness.  If a poorly trained German Pilot could survive long enough to develop his SA, his chances of surviving the war went up astronomically.  Almost 98 percent of the German fighter pilots Killed in Action, were killed before the completion of their first few missions.

The Luftwaffe in 1944 was made of a very small core of very experienced pilots surrounded by scores of poorly trained amatuers.

The vast majority of German pilots encountered by allied pilots were these poorly trained cannon fodder in the last years of the war.

Quote
Guppy35 says:
I can't imagine the strain the LW drivers were feeling after a time, but I know if you look at the photos of some of the Experten, you can see the strain on thier faces. They look beaten up from the constant ops, which was to be expected.


Which is absolutely true.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Raptor

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7577
The most Uber plane ever!
« Reply #46 on: December 27, 2005, 11:20:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pooface
TeH aWeSoMe!!!1!111!!11

TeH sPiTfIrE iS tEh BeTtEr PlAnEz!!!!


I dont feel like doing a search right now, but someone posted in this forum an account of when a spitfire pilot was going to explain why his spit was better than a P38 to a squadron. He challenged the best pilot from the 38 squadron to a 1 on 1 fight and in the end the P38 Pilot won.

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20387
The most Uber plane ever!
« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2005, 12:19:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raptor01
I dont feel like doing a search right now, but someone posted in this forum an account of when a spitfire pilot was going to explain why his spit was better than a P38 to a squadron. He challenged the best pilot from the 38 squadron to a 1 on 1 fight and in the end the P38 Pilot won.


Just search "John Lowell".  We've debated that fight endlessly :)

Best guess based on the innacuracies in the story is Lowell, flying a 38J-25 took on an RAF Wing Commander, probably Teddy Donaldson (who'd been out of combat since just after the B of B) in a Spitfire XIV.  

Lowell was at his best, Donaldson was not.  Donaldson probably made the same mistake most Spit drivers did when they moved on to the XIV, he tried to fly it like a Merlin Spit.  It just doesn't work that way.  Lowell ate him up.

But again.  Search John Lowell.  Lots of strong opinions about him and that fight in the past in this forum.
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
The most Uber plane ever!
« Reply #48 on: December 28, 2005, 02:13:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raptor01
I dont feel like doing a search right now, but someone posted in this forum an account of when a spitfire pilot was going to explain why his spit was better than a P38 to a squadron. He challenged the best pilot from the 38 squadron to a 1 on 1 fight and in the end the P38 Pilot won.



There are also the stories about the same P-38 pilot scaring the piss out of Galand and making him run home with his tail tucked between his legs and yelping like a puppy stuck outside on a cold night.



ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline 1K3

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3449
The most Uber plane ever!
« Reply #49 on: December 28, 2005, 02:51:34 AM »
This thread neeeds a SOLID support/facts on why P-38 is *The Most Uber Plane Ever*

i'll try...

* P-38 is the most successful aerial "Zerstörer" series of WWII

* P-38 is The Jack of All Trades.

* P-38 is the F/A-18 fighter bomber of its time in WWII

* P-38 served in Europe, Pacific, and Mediterranean theaters with success (HUGE SUCCESS in PACIFIC)  

* P-38 has a long list of resumes (short example... responsible for tipping the balance of power between the Army Air Corps and the Japanese Army AF in the pacific in 1942)

* P-38: Shortest take-off of any USAAF/USAAC fighter

* P-38 benefits from NO TORQUE due to counter-rotating engines

* P-38 Fowler flaps on P-38G/H/J/L gives P-38s greater wing area, can be used as combat flaps to out-turn opponents

* P-38 Nose mounted guns are deadly, no converging required

* P-38 has good slow/medium speed characteristics

Offline Raptor

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7577
The most Uber plane ever!
« Reply #50 on: December 28, 2005, 03:19:43 AM »
* Twin engines made it more survivable for flying over seemingly endless ocean

* First truely long range fighter for the US

* Richard Bong was America’s all-time leading fighter ace

*It's just downright sexy

Offline ghi

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2669
The most Uber plane ever!
« Reply #51 on: December 28, 2005, 08:32:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
There are also the stories about the same P-38 pilot scaring the piss out of Galand and making him run home with his tail tucked between his legs and yelping like a puppy stuck outside on a cold night.



ack-ack


    Where did you read that ? in some cartoons  capitalist war  propaganda  ?
Sir , better change your signature :    " Some pilots are good. some pilots are great but the best of all flew the Me109":D
« Last Edit: December 28, 2005, 08:47:25 AM by ghi »

Offline 1K3

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3449
The most Uber plane ever!
« Reply #52 on: December 28, 2005, 10:42:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raptor01
* Twin engines made it more survivable for flying over seemingly endless ocean

* First truely long range fighter for the US

*It's just downright sexy


lol i forgot about that:p

Offline SKJohn

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 792
Re: The most Uber plane ever!
« Reply #53 on: December 28, 2005, 11:21:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack



-Nuff said.


ack-ack


It's obvious to me from the picture that the heroic Japanese pilots have just taken off from their field against vastly superior numbers and are in the process of being "vulched" and/or "CHerry Picked"!;)

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20387
The most Uber plane ever!
« Reply #54 on: December 28, 2005, 11:29:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ghi
Where did you read that ? in some cartoons  capitalist war  propaganda  ?
Sir , better change your signature :    " Some pilots are good. some pilots are great but the best of all flew the Me109":D


The story involves John Lowell in a late model 38, encountering Galland in a D9.  Supposadly Galland met Lowell postwar and acknowledged it, heard by other old fighter pilots at the same gathering of aces.

Problems with the story:
-D9 didn't show up until a while after the 364th FG(Lowells unit) had transitioned to P51s.
-Did Galland fly D9s?

General consensus is that the encounter did not happen the way the story is told.
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Crumpp

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3671
The most Uber plane ever!
« Reply #55 on: December 28, 2005, 11:32:22 AM »
Quote
General consensus is that the encounter did not happen the way the story is told.


Yep.  The general consensus is that Lowell was very drunk and Galland was being a polite guest.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline ghi

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2669
The most Uber plane ever!
« Reply #56 on: December 28, 2005, 12:38:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raptor01
* Twin engines made it more survivable for flying over seemingly endless ocean

* First truely long range fighter for the US

* Richard Bong was America’s all-time leading fighter ace

*It's just downright sexy


  BMW------------------- powered most FWs,  
  DB/Mercedes  -------powered the Me109s.
 
Same watermelon today , go to dealer take a BMW/ Mercedes for a test ride  than take a GM/Ford and feel the diference. Some buid quality others quantity, no wonder the only one still making profit out of 3 huge North American car maker, is Crysler maybe cuz Mercedes bought it.

  Germans had the jet engine almost ready by the time when british scientist were trying to discover the hot water and fuel injection, cuz the spits"s engines equpied with carburators stoped in mid fight,
  On the other side of Atlantic, the americans ussed compresed carburators, also were not able  to make a reliable sincronized cannon shooting through the prop without lossing the rate of fire.
   Maybe they build the "Uber Sexy P38s" with 2 engines just cuz were not able to find a techincal solution for the gunz to fire through the prop:D

Offline Oldman731

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9504
The most Uber plane ever!
« Reply #57 on: December 28, 2005, 12:53:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ghi
Germans had the jet engine almost ready by the time when british scientist were trying to discover the hot water and fuel injection

Guess all their cleverness was just not enough.

- oldman

Offline Crumpp

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3671
The most Uber plane ever!
« Reply #58 on: December 28, 2005, 01:01:22 PM »
Quote
Guess all their cleverness was just not enough.


Not with odds like these:

http://img120.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=676f8_size_of_opposing_forces.jpg

Offline Crumpp

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3671
The most Uber plane ever!
« Reply #59 on: December 28, 2005, 01:10:47 PM »
Quote
Maybe they build the "Uber Sexy P38s" with 2 engines just cuz were not able to find a techincal solution for the gunz to fire through the prop


Piston engine technology was pretty much the same all over.  The only real advancement was the further development of the sleeve valve:

http://www.eagle.ca/~harry/aircraft/tempest/sabre/

The Germans continued their trends in engine development they began in 1918.  In fact most nations simply continued down their estabilished pre-war paths.

All the best,

Crumpp