North African New Year

[Grits]

Originally posted by storch
empirical evidence?  I have none.  historical evidence ok here is what I believe from reading many different books.  by 1942 the Hurricane was completely outclassed as a fighter and was relegated to the ground attack role.  it was a 1935 design entering squadron service in 1937.  during the BoB it was assigned the important task of primarily dealing with bomber interception because it could not effective deal with the Bf109E.  while the hurricane did down more German A/C than the spitfire did during the BoB was primarily due to it's greater numbers at that stage of the war.  does that sound like the HTC hurri to you? it doesn't to me.

Sure. The Hurricane has no strengths except for turn rate (not counting guns), in every other area nearly any plane can absolutely dictate the fight against the Hurricane. Fly against it properly and a Hurricane can do nothing be fly defensive.

The Bf110 while much maligned for it's performance during the BoB was actually a pretty good all around fighter excelling in bomber interception as a night fighter.  however there was no way it could turn against single engined fighters.  does that sound like the HTC bf110 to you? it doesn't to me.

The 110 is good, but I dont find it as good as you make it out to be, and surely not in the realm of overmodeled

If we were to consider the modelling presented by HTC as representative of these aircraft then we can conclude the both the RAE and RLM made considerable errors in not selecting these designs for further developement and cancelling other designs like the spitfire and the 109s.  let alone ever even consider the 190. [/B]

I find the Spitfire superior to the Hurricane and I find the 109 and 190 superior to the 110, just as they should be.

[TheBug]

Although I have no hard evidence at all when it comes to flight modelling.  

I find it hard to use historical reference as to why this plane is uber over that plane, when you take out the tactics, the strategy, the fact you only get one life and plethora of other factors in dictating why one plane is better than another then slap it all into a furballing arena as your laboratory.  

The wildcat versus the A6m is a great historical reference to show how supposed "overmodelling" is overrated.

I in no way mean to say that people's cases against the flight models are incorrect or that they are correct.  It's more along the lines of you really need the hard evidence to make your case.

[Larry]

Originally posted by Grits
The Hurricane was a tube steel frame with canvas skin, shells go through, not explode on the outside like a stressed skin.



Want to test the theory?

Dont thing the canvas thing is modeled into AH 30mms shells go of on them.

I dont have to test it its already been prooven. Last BoB I pretty much pwn3d joe untill he ran to about 1.5 turn and HOed. And the other day in the TA I was staying on Poofaces tail untill he started his rolling sissors. I was in the C4 he was in a S5. And dont even get me started with the last Fin/Rus how I out turned Shanes la5 in my 110G2 and killed him. (note there were no friendlys to be seen in fact I was the one geting ganged)

[Larry]

Originally posted by TheBug
I in no way mean to say that people's cases against the flight models are incorrect or that they are correct.  It's more along the lines of you really need the hard evidence to make your case.

Just like crumpps fight to get the 190s fixed and the 109 and 190 flaps.

[Grits]

Originally posted by Larry
I dont have to test it its already been prooven. Last BoB I pretty much pwn3d joe untill he ran to about 1.5 turn and HOed. And the other day in the TA I was staying on Poofaces tail untill he started his rolling sissors. I was in the C4 he was in a S5. And dont even get me started with the last Fin/Rus how I out turned Shanes la5 in my 110G2 and killed him. (note there were no friendlys to be seen in fact I was the one geting ganged)

I dont know who joe is, and the only thing I know about Pooface is he is a friendly fragger. Shane is the only one I know and I highly doubt you consistantly beat him in a 1 v 1, maybe once.

I didnt expect you to back up your ludicrous claims, its much easier to live in delusion.

[Oldman731]

It's up.  Post problems here as you find them, please.

Re:  Hurri II.  Appreciate Storch's observations, but it seems to me you really can't leave the Hurricanes out of North Africa unless they totally unbalance the arena, like the old Spit 5 did.  My own observation is that the Hurri II never was unbalancing (the 109F owned it), it was simply used an awful lot.  I think that many people will fly the P-38 and, now, the Spit 5 in preference to the Hurri II.  

Guess we can watch during the course of the week, and....er....make any necessary adjustments as we go....?

- oldman

[storch]

Grits, I bet that if you play to the best of your ability in a 110C you will beat me in a spitV every time.  you would have a little tougher time with me in the Hurri, If you are game I'm willing to try that. provided you can keep slash and duke from interferring in the fight.

[Karnak]

I actually agree with Storch in regards to the Bf110 and Hurricane.

Not one RAF pilot I have ever read of has commented on how responsive and light the Hurricane was compared to the Spitfire.  It was always the reverse of that.  Yet in AH the only thing the Spit has is a little top end speed.  The comments historically were about what a great gun platform the Hurri was compared to the Spit, but to me that also says that it was slower to respond.

The Bf110 is the same.

If the two models are accurate in AH the Brits were nuts to have continued with the Spitfire and should have canceled it in favor of the Hurri (can you imagine a Hurri with a Merlin 66 or Griffon 65?) and the Germans should have canceled the Bf109 abd gone with the much more capable Bf110.

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by Karnak
If the two models are accurate in AH the Brits were nuts to have continued with the Spitfire and should have canceled it in favor of the Hurri  

Granting that the Hurricane may be overmodeled, I've always found the Spit I to be more capable than the Hurri I, and the Spit V more capable than the Hurri II.

It's those blasted English planes, I tell you, they're all overmodeled!

- oldman

[storch]

well then would you consider adding the mossie anyway?  please note that my objection is with the HurriIIc not the I or the IId.  I'll concede that they are easy enough to defeat 1 v 1 but when the lemmings start hording, ahi yai yai.  

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by storch
well then would you consider adding the mossie anyway?  

Anyone know if there were Mosquitos in North Africa?

- oldman

[Grits]

Originally posted by storch
Grits, I bet that if you play to the best of your ability in a 110C you will beat me in a spitV every time.  you would have a little tougher time with me in the Hurri, If you are game I'm willing to try that. provided you can keep slash and duke from interferring in the fight.

The SpitV should easily beat the 110c pilots being equal. If the SpitV loses its the pilots fault not the performance of the 110c. The Hurricane is helpless against the 110C, or just about any other plane because of its slow speed and poor vertical abilities. Co-alt all you have to do is extend/zoom, get above it and the Hurricane is at your mercy, it has no options but to go totally defensive. If you lose to a Hurricane its because you made a mistake that the Hurricane was able to capitalise on.

If you want to test this, the DA is really the place to do it, not the CT.

[storch]

Originally posted by Oldman731
Anyone know if there were Mosquitos in North Africa?

- oldman

LOL I 'll research it now

[Airscrew]

a quick search, (at work)

http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avmoss2.html

1942, when a B.IV Mosquito was given to Colonel Elliot Roosevelt, the American President's son and commander of a USAAF reconnaissance squadron in North Africa, equipped with Lockheed F-4 Lightning reconnaissance aircraft. The B.IV was faster and had much longer range than the Lockheeds, and Elliot Roosevelt began to press for adopting the British machine.


http://www.rafmarham.co.uk/organisation/39squadron/39shistory.htm

Fighting in North Africa finished on 12th May 1943 and the Squadron moved to Protville near Tunis in June. The Squadron was then re-equipped with Bristol Beaufighter aircraft. The Beaufighter was a twin engined fighter-bomber, with a top speed of 330mph at 14000ft. It was armed with four 20mm cannons and six machine guns, together with torpedoes and bombs.

You might consider the Mossie or A20G as a sub for the Beaufighter;)

http://www.studenten.net/customasp/axl/profile.asp?cat_id=3&ple_id=98

Probably the most versatile aircraft ever made, certainly the most versatile of the Second World War, the De Havilland Mosquito not only was able to perform a wide variety of roles, it excelled in every one of them and did so in a wide variety of climates, from the Russian front to North Africa and Southeast Asia as well as Europe.

Mosquitoes were also built in Canada and Australia and used by the services of those countries and some PR Mosquitoes were used in North Africa and Europe by the United States Army Air Force.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/ww2/A3083285
(but they flew Bristol Beaufighters)

June 1943 - January 1944 North African Coastal Air Force
  Whilst serving with the North African Coastal Air Force, 219 Squadron took part in providing air cover for the Allied invasion of Sicilly and the Salerno landings on the Italian mainland. During this period it also provided convoy protection.


ok back to work

[Larry]

Originally posted by Grits
I dont know who joe is, and the only thing I know about Pooface is he is a friendly fragger. Shane is the only one I know and I highly doubt you consistantly beat him in a 1 v 1, maybe once.

I didnt expect you to back up your ludicrous claims, its much easier to live in delusion.

joe is joedog. and pooface is one hell of a spit pilot. I didnt consistantly beat him. I only went head to head with him once in the 110. He was in a La5 and started turning with me while a hurri that was in the area started B&zing me. About 4 mins into it I saw another Hurri coming in low so I pulled hard almost stalling it and light shane up with 20s and 30s he blew up and about 5 secs after that the low hurri came in and blasted me. The first hurri I can only remember his name started with a L and the second hurri was batfink.