North African New Year

[Yeager]

from a purely historical perspective, the question of the Luftwaffes devotion to the nazi party is an interesting question.  I think the facts are there for all to avail but deciding on how to "perceive" the facts is what seems to cause the most trouble....

From my studies I have come to understand that the large majority of the pilots in Hitlers Luftwaffe in the 30s and early 40s were very pro Hitler and happy members of the nazi party.  Once late 43-mid 1944 rolled around, those Luftwaffe pilots still alive and on active duty were considerably less enthusiastic about the whole affair........of course, they were losing the war and were non to happy about it.  Most remained in the nazi party but were doing so in an atmoshpere of implied and demonstrated nazi terror.  Many of the officers in the Luftwaffe late in the war showed open contempt and outright insubordination towards Hitler, Goering and the nazi party but they were still providing a valuable service to the Third Reich.  Both Steinhoff ("The Final Hours") and Galland ("The First and the Last") wrote after the war attesting to the realities of the time and theirs and many others subsequent regrets at helping to sustain the bloodshed once they realized Hitlers insanity.

In summary: The end of the German Luftwafe found the survivors merely operating on the simplistic principle that they were now defending their homes and families from the aggression of the allied air armadas.  They knew the war was lost yet were determined to fight on, as was their "Job", their "assignment".  

It is not a unique problem for one to find themselves in and merely reflects the tragedy of war.  One side wins, the other loses.  The loser is left to describe why he continued to fight in the face of defeat.

[TheBug]

Originally posted by Yeager

From my studies I have come to understand that the large majority of the pilots in Hitlers Luftwaffe in the 30s and early 40s were very pro Hitler and happy members of the nazi party.  

I wonder where you get your studies from

"Nazi members with military ambitions were encouraged to join the Waffen SS, but a great number enlisted in the Wehrmacht and even more were drafted for service after World War II began. Early regulations required that all Wehrmacht members be non-political, and therefore any National Socialist member joining in the 1930s was required to resign from the Nazi Party."

Wehrmacht includes the Luftwaffe in case your studies missed that part too.



"Maximum total membership in the Nazi Party was 8.5 million. This was about ten percent of the total German population (calculated to include Austrians, Sudetenland Germans and Volksdeutsche from annexed and occuped areas who were treated as citizens) of about 85 million. The total number of Germans who served in any branch of the armed services between 1939 and 1945 was over 23 million (Wehrmacht 17,893,200, Luftwaffe 3,400,000, Kriegsmarine 1,500,000 and Waffen SS 1,000,000).


"Forgetting the fact that millions of Nazi party members were women and non-military service men, it is mathematically impossible for the "German army" to be "mostly Nazi" as claimed.



Mostly Nazis in the Waffen SS, yeah you may have a point.  In the "professional" branches of the Luftwaffe and the Kriegsmarine, you are full of it.  That is not to say they did not support the Nazi Regime.  But judging by the fervor of their fighting, how could you possibly believe they fought for a political party, instead of the defense of their nation.  They were Germans, fighting for Germany.  To deem them at the gunpoint of the Nazi Party reeks of revisionism to me, I don't let them off the hook that easily.  But I won't also quickly dismiss their reasoning for going to war either.

[Kongkyuk]

Originally posted by Larry


It starts off with me going afk to go check the mail when I come back I drop down to 10k and head to two cons when I get there I do a bad job at B&zing them, bucause anyone in thier right mind isnt going to give up alt and turn with a Hurri2C and P40 in a 190A5. After a bit they try to RTB. Since I alreay know the hurri is kongk and the P40 is a 325th pilot I let the P40 land and try to get the hurri before he lands. Kurttank(I think thats his name) comes in and pops him and thats when the fun starts so enjoy. [/B]

Well I'm glad you posted this. I've been meaning to explain my views of you.

You continue to post one sided views of all encounters, not only with me but with others. As you state in your post, you had alt and the advantage, (which you should strive to achieve everytime you go up, thats a good thing).
Now everytime we engage one of us has had the advantage. When I do you die and when you do I die. The difference here is, I don't get upset. It is usually a good fight and I like to learn from anyone I fight. You on the other hand go ballistic and call me names for killing you, exp: I used the ack, I had the alt, I ho'd you, I had the e, I had a wingman, you snuck up on me, I fly an uber plane, on and on and on. I like the CT because most of the pilots are very good and you and I are good pilots. You on the other hand think you are the BEST. You aren't, your good. The problem most all of us have with you, is your arrogant, nasty, rude, inconsiderate demenor. Clean up your High school attitude and we all would have a nicer time in the CT. It's a GAME.

[Kongkyuk]

kongkyuk has 7 kills on truekill
truekill has 6 kills on kongkyuk


From the player Vs. player stats for December 05

[Larry]

Originally posted by Kongkyuk
Well I'm glad you posted this. I've been meaning to explain my views of you.

You continue to post one sided views of all encounters, not only with me but with others. As you state in your post, you had alt and the advantage, (which you should strive to achieve everytime you go up, thats a good thing).
Now everytime we engage one of us has had the advantage. When I do you die and when you do I die. The difference here is, I don't get upset. It is usually a good fight and I like to learn from anyone I fight. You on the other hand go ballistic and call me names for killing you, exp: I used the ack, I had the alt, I ho'd you, I had the e, I had a wingman, you snuck up on me, I fly an uber plane, on and on and on. I like the CT because most of the pilots are very good and you and I are good pilots. You on the other hand think you are the BEST. You aren't, your good. The problem most all of us have with you, is your arrogant, nasty, rude, inconsiderate demenor. Clean up your High school attitude and we all would have a nicer time in
the CT. It's a GAME.

I guess you didnt watch the film did you? I had the alt yes but when came back I droped about 5K and heading for yall. Nope try again because two fights the other day were co alt and I won both of them. No I dont go ballistic and call you names. All I say is you need the alt to get a kill and its a fact. And In no ****ing way did I ever think or say Im the best. Yes Im good and mabey better then half the people in the CT because I can fight 1 v 1 and dont need help you OTOH cant. Yes most dont like me because of the way I ask and I could care less what yall think. WOW you just said its a game I guess you didnt see the screenshot I posted eather.

kongkyuk has 7 kills on truekill
truekill has 6 kills on kongkyuk


From the player Vs. player stats for December 05

 Wow what does that show? That you have 7 picks on me. But I know for sure that 3 of my kills on you were 1 v 1 oh wait only 2 because that one I vulched you 2K away from your base on take off


How about you try this when you log on and see a JG54 member on you dont start blabing on talking watermelon when we are flying around having fun and none of this crap would happen.

[Yeager]

That is not to say they did not support the Nazi Regime. But judging by the fervor of their fighting, how could you possibly believe they fought for a political party, instead of the defense of their nation. They were Germans, fighting for Germany. To deem them at the gunpoint of the Nazi Party reeks of revisionism to me,
===
Bug,

I want to emphasize what you said here:

"how could you possibly believe they fought for a political party, instead of the defense of their nation. They were Germans, fighting for Germany."

You seem to imply here that Germany was simply defending itself and was not guilty of aggression against all of europe?

You do understand that Germany was not defending against Poland, France, England and Russia when they attacked these countries?  

You do understand that all these countries were attacked by Germany without any prior military provacation? Attacked and invaded (with the exception of England which defeated the Luftwaffe at the Battle of Britain).

You know all this, correct?

The invasion of Poland, France and Russia could not have happened without the aid of the Luftwaffe.  The Luftwaffe, or the Wehrmacht, were doing the bidding of Adolph Hitler and are equally culpable in the mass death and destruction wrought by nazism as Hitler is himself.  

The reality is that the "masses" of the great German military machine, the great Wehrmacht, may not have been card carrying members of the Nazi party, but they were all accomplices of Nazism and are equally guilty of crimes against all of civilization as resolved in the second world war.  

In the "final days" as Steinhoff called them, Germans were simply fighting for their own personal survival......their cause was facism and they were defeated by the allies.  Like I said previously.  We cannot absolve Germany for the misery it generated simply because Germany lost the war.

" They were Germans, fighting for Germany."

You simply cannot change this reality.

The part of your post that really hits home for me is this, and I qoute you:

"But I won't also quickly dismiss their reasoning for going to war either."

I think I missed that part in history class.  Why did Hitler invade Poland, France, Russia, attack England and declare war on the United States?

Give me your spin on it.......

Also, how many human beings died because of Hitler, Germany and Facism during the second world war? Do you have the numbers?

[TheBug]

Speaking of the Nazi Party, if they were all for sending these two to the gas chambers I think I'd be a member in heartbeat.  That's based just on their poor spelling alone.  


There is a master race, it's just exactly what defines it that is in question.  I believe reading posts on this forum makes it clearer and clearer everyday.  We must stop them from spawning, they are clearly playing the numbers game.

[Yeager]

tell me more about this "master race" bug.

[Kongkyuk]

Originally posted by Larry
I had the alt yes  No I dont go ballistic and call you names. All I say is you need the alt to get a kill and its a fact. And In no ****ing way did I ever think or say Im the best. Yes Im good and mabey better then half the people in the CT because I can fight 1 v 1 and dont need help you OTOH cant. Yes most dont like me because of the way I ask and I could care less what yall think. WOW you just said its a game I guess you didnt see the screenshot I posted eather.






 

Sigh,, you will never grow up

[TheBug]

Originally posted by Yeager
Give me your spin on it.......

Also, how many human beings died because of Hitler, Germany and Facism during the second world war? Do you have the numbers?

I'll give you my spin...  First off Germany only attacked Poland.  France and England declared war on Germany first.  You really are illiterate when it comes to history.  They invaded Poland in manuevering to attack their truly, perceived enemy communist Russia.  Strangely the same power that the US spent billions of dollars over 50 years fighting during the cold war.  Strangely the same power that invaded Poland sixteen days after the Germans, yet become our Allies.  

Again I am in no way supportive of what Germany did, but I think a lot of people, clearly you, don't have a true picture of what really happened and are only blinded by the true energy that was used to build evil regimes like Nazi Germany, that is Propoganda.

Please don't misunderstand my dislike of your ignorance as support of the evil crimes committed by the Germans.  But as quick as we are as a nation to justify our "liberation" of Iraq, I think the Germans had a much longer, again perceived, list of reasons to go to war.   But I'm a firm believer no matter how you slice it, whether for tyrants or elected leaders war is evil.

[TheBug]

Originally posted by Yeager
tell me more about this "master race" bug.

 

It will be IQ based, with a strong work ethic, correct spelling is a must, although we will excuse grammatical mistakes.  There will be no distinctions based upon race, color or creed.  Sexual orientation is of no matter.  Basically if you are an overweight, lazy, disrespectful, handsomehunk you are going to the chambers before you can contaminate the gene pool.

None of that is directed at you Yeager, just answering your question.

[Yeager]

You really are illiterate when it comes to history.
====
Well....hehe, I havent been to a history indoctrination class in a few years.  I can get the data easily enough.

You are correct on this point.  England and France sent Hitler an Ultimatum to withdraw from Poland on Sept 1.  Hilter invaded Poland in a secret pact with Stalin.  Was risky and dicey and led to War.  Fair enough.  Hitlers facist nazi
aggression got him busted and started world war two.

What did Nazi Germany want with Russia?  Oil?

This ones a real dinger though:

"but I think a lot of people, clearly you, don't have a true picture of what really happened and are only blinded by the true energy that was used to build evil regimes like Nazi Germany"

True Energy!

Man fill me in on this! Tell me more about true energy being used to build evil regimes!

Is this true energy the stuff that got us involved in Iraq?  Who controls the true energy?  Is the US a evil regime?

Who is the head honcho of the master race?

[TheBug]

You really are illiterate when it comes to history.
====
Well....hehe, I havent been to a history indoctrination class in a few years.  I can get the data easily enough.

 Apparently not that easily



You are correct on this point.  England and France sent Hitler an Ultimatum to withdraw from Poland on Sept 1.  Hilter invaded Poland in a secret pact with Stalin.  Was risky and dicey and led to War.  Fair enough.  Hitlers facist nazi
aggression got him busted and started world war two.

What did Nazi Germany want with Russia?  Oil?



 Seeing as how WWII is considered just a continuation of WWI, a purely imperialistic war,  I think it is obvious what Germany wanted.  I leave that to you to actually truly go and do some "studies".

For extra credit: What did the US want with Russia?


This ones a real dinger though:

"but I think a lot of people, clearly you, don't have a true picture of what really happened and are only blinded by the true energy that was used to build evil regimes like Nazi Germany"

True Energy!

Man fill me in on this! Tell me more about true energy being used to build evil regimes!

I named it, it's called propoganda and it fills your head.

Is this true energy the stuff that got us involved in Iraq?  


 Well, yes and no.  It is used to make the people accept the imperialistic, money grabbing nature of the war.

Who controls the true energy?

 Whomever spins it the best.


 Is the US a evil regime?


 This one I like the best and sums this debate up better than anything else.  The answer is-- Depends on who you ask.  Make sense?


Yeager so far this debate has been you making false statements, starting with your false claims from your so called studies, followed up by my factual disputes to your claims.  Yes I have tossed in a bit of personal opinions here and there, but no blatant BS like you.  So in the spirit of a good debate I suggest you go back and refresh your "studies" and then come back.  Maybe at that point you will have something a little bit closer to the truth to type.   Other than that I'm calling it quits here, you win.   I think it is an interesting topic of debate, but am also aware of the fact that it can become too heated.  Have a great New Year Yeager and please understand I did not mean to project any negative feelings towards you, it was just a debate and I appreciate your keeping a level head

Who is the head honcho of the master race?

 Well me of course! Sheesh.....  I thought that was obvious.              

[Bear76]

Originally posted by Larry
You have the best memory:rofl

I guess you were cought in your lie.



Dont worry the film is uploading for all to see.

actuall the two lines above say a lot too:lol

[Yeager]

hehe.....its all cool bug.  

Keepin somewhat on topic:
Seeing as how WWII is considered just a continuation of WWI, a purely imperialistic war, I think it is obvious what Germany wanted.
====
I would have preferred an answer, even a simple one, since you are on the educating side of this discussion.

I named it, it's called propoganda and it fills your head.
====
nah...too simple.  True Energy is magificent and grand.  Used for good, not bad.  Propoganda is spin and is used to mislead and decieve (sort of like your answers to my questions).  You need to find a better name for it, or just call it what it is, propoganda.

Well, yes and no. It is used to make the people accept the imperialistic, money grabbing nature of the war.
====
War is much more than simple imperialism and money.  I was hoping for an answer from you on this one, rather than simple rhetoric.

Whomever spins it the best.
====
Much more here than meets the proverbial eye.  Spin is powerful and can often defeat the truth, unless the truth has the power of conviction to combat the lies supported in spin, or propoganda.

This one I like the best and sums this debate up better than anything else. The answer is-- Depends on who you ask. Make sense?
====
only depends on who is victorious and who prevails in the conflict.  It didnt matter what any nazi war criminal thought.  They were tried, judged and sentenced according to the victors terms.


Yeager so far this debate has been you making false statements, starting with your false claims from your so called studies, followed up by my factual disputes to your claims.
====
My studies are me reading and watching...listening, observing  (this includes talking with people like you on the internet).  If I dont have all the facts before me then fine, easy enough to amend.  All the data needed for a thoughtful and reasoned decision on any valid historical topic is readily available to anyone seeking the facts.

You do not have control of the facts and I honestly dont see a whole lot of "fact" presented by you or any real counters to the majority of what I have said in this thread regarding nazism and the Luftwaffe.

The bottom line is the german military machine fought at the complicit direction of Adolph Hitler and as such is a full and vested accomplice to the crimes of Adolph Hitler, his Nazi party, the Third Reich...the whole stroodle, as it were.

Well me of course! Sheesh.....
====
Oh good!  for a minute there I thought I had missed the master race boat