Crummp- a new thread for old issues

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by F4UDOA
Kurfurst,

Is your assertion that the possibility that slave (Slave being a kind term in this case) labor might want to do less than a perfect job or even want to "sabotage" the very people that were trying to kill them?

F4U, I tend to think you have some very generalized idea on production. "Slaves" were of course there, there were as well paid foreign workers from Holland and France's aero industry. They were quite interested not being sent home, since they only could get jobs in Germany. They came there voluntarily, some because of ideolical reasons, others because of the money for the familiy.

The number of 'slaves', ie. Prisoners of War and Jews amounted only 12% of the total workforce in the aviation industry (USSBS). And I tend to think they were far more busy beinng happy to get out of the KZ to a relatively safe place, rather than get back there for some error they made. They tried to survive, not to play some hero, at least most of them. I am sure there were exceptions.
One can guess what sorts of jobs they did get, having no idea about aircraft industry - I've seen a documentary about Messerschmitt, where his former engineers were interviewed, it was told they got only the lowest jobs which required no knowladge, not the actual manufacturing of aircraft. A ukrainian peasant women for example, however nice she may be, knows very little about stressed skin construction technologies and won't be told to try to do that. She may bring a bucket of rivets to the skilled German or Foreign labour, sweep the floor, and generally help out.

Are you saying that they had the same vigilence in there effort than say a worker at Grumman, North American or Supermarine who might have a family mamber who life depended on the quality of their work?[/B]

I can hardly see a reason why a German worker, especially in nazi germany, would be inspired to sabotage the warplanes of his own country, which was constantly being bombed and probably already lost some relatives in carpet bombings..

What ever problems you have with Mike Williams are your own, the quote came from a member of the Luftwaffe who described multplie problems not one incedent. [/B]

Sure, and for every Mike Williams qoute, there's 3 others saying the opposite, he just doesn't show them. He wishes to impress visitors with the small picture, single pilots telling about they got a bad aircraft, a dozen of single accounts how Spitfires shot down enemy aircraft (given those, they themselves were never shot down, it was one long glory march). He compares the best aircraft on the highest boost, of which probalby a dozen were around and had no real impact on the operation to the most common enemy aircrafts. He doesn't see, or want us to see the big picture.

I tend to rely on sources that show this big picture instead. The USSBS in a summary of the state of Germany's industry, all areas. They had no reason to praise it or show it better than it was. Yet, about the quality of the aircraft industry they say the decline in quality was superficial and not effecting performance seriously. Quality control (BAL) ws held in high regard and rejected the planes and components that did not met the specs due to the sabotage/errors that may have occured under such condition.

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
Mike says that his performance curves should be treated with reserve.

He never says that to his beloved Spitfire curves, I wonder why?

He says: The DB605DC at 1.98ata with  MW was tested but seems not to to have made it into service.[/B]

Sure he says that, but it seems to be his wishful thinking since after all, nothing supports it. He used to list 1.98 performance curves for a while (with thin yellow lines on a white background, one could barely see it...), with a qoute from butch2k who he referred as "Olivier Lefebvre, noted authority on the BF 109". Butch2k, who I'd rather believe instead of the MW or NS, stated there : "1.98ata boost was cleared late February but it seems to have been slowly introduced into service, I suspect the adjustments needed on the engine and the change of sparkplugs type (supply problems ???) took longer than expected. ..You can safely assume that by March 1945 1.98 ata boost was being introduced.."

Mike Williams and Neil Stirling were also shown the actual orders about 1.98ata introduction to four Bf 109 wings, which they dismissed, and entrenched themselves in a partisan stance, removing all 1.98ata curves, removing the now unpleasent qoute from butch2k which stood in the way of the agenda, and are claiming 1.98ata (which could be used by the DB 605DC) was never used in service. They also went as far forging evidence, showing the boost rates of a different engine, the DB 605DB.

It was not just Knickrehm's a/c, for he says more than one a/c received by his unit.[/B]

Oh, I am sure of that, but that's a drop in the sea compared to the big picture. Knickrehm's unit may have received a dozen, poorly produced aircraft, but the LW had 3000+ plus fighters at that time...

[Crumpp]

This quote from a Luftwaffe pilot would seem to indicate that the problems did reach the field.

While I agree it does appear in the quote that the Germans recieved scores of substandard aircraft you have to read the quote and put it into the context of history.

The machines that were delivered were technically obsolete and of considerably lowered quality. The engines proved prone to trouble after much too short a time, because the factories had had to sharply curtail test runs for lack of fuel. The surface finish of the outer skin also left much to be desired. The sprayed-on camouflage finish was rough and uneven. The result was a further reduction in speed. We often discovered clear cases of sabotage during our acceptance checks. Cables or wires were not secured, were improperly attached, scratched or had even been visibly cut. 1

"During our acceptance checks" is a key phrase.  He is clearly discussing aircraft which have not been accepted for Luftwaffe Service.

1943-44 represent a large scale expansion of the German aircraft industry. Of course there were quality control problems.  That is a natural part of the expansion cycle and is generally planned for in most companies.  

Again examine Willow Run, a model US Factory:

At the same time, it was reported that "the automotive type precision tooling at Willow Run had resulted in such uniformity of production that more than half of all of the Ford-built Liberators were accepted for delivery on their maiden flights," an unusually high percentage of plane approval.

If 50 percent of your airplanes manufacturered are making through acceptance first time, they are really being well made.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit14v109.html

All the best,

Crumpp

[MANDO]

Just a quick comment about turning, what really counts is turn rate. In fact, turning below corner speed is not a good idea, turning at stall speed is even worse idea.

[Angus]

Read up on the Todt organization to get an idea of the extense of slave labour. Was sabotage or just just poor workmanship possible? Yes.
Read up on Schindler as well and see what he got away with!

Anyway, since you're in the comparing business, Does anyone have nice numbers of weight, top speed, and time to alt for say, an F4u, 190 Spit or whatever, as long as the power is in the same ballpark. Or better still, for a 190 for instance the A5, the hp, the weight, and time to 10 and 20K?
I can get the energy into N for you, so the only difference is Hp and/or wing efficiency at climb.

Well, happy new year, again

[Crumpp]

Which has what to do with the aircraft industry, Angus??

Are you simply trolling AGAIN?

Do you see anyone claiming sabotage did not occur?

[Angus]

I see someone claiming that the effect of it is miniscule. It's not a troll.
Schindler ran an ammunition plant along with other stuff. I think not as single shot ever worked.
Messerchmitt was a part of the game as well.
As for the workers output, it may have been ok, - people trying to do good to save their skin. But again, the prisoner was only supposed to last 9 months as an average.
I have yet to see the foreign labour as "well paid"
Just browse up a little Crumpp and spot the real troll.

[Crumpp]

You completely missed the mark, Angus.  Please reread the post and try to understand what is written this time.

Read up.

[Angus]

Reread Kuffies reply yerself....

[justin_g]

I have yet to see the foreign labour as "well paid"

Lol, thats not what he said...

there were as well(comma) paid foreign workers from Holland and France's aero industry

[Angus]

Exactly Justin

[F4UDOA]

Crummp,

I will post the D9 USAF evaluation. You have far more information on the FW190 than I do but much of what I have read points to early versions of the 190 (And 109) being the best fighting versions. I am using the empty weight growth and the steadily increasing wingloading as the reason for this. Both varients required ariframe redesigns to maintain there viability as "interceptor" aircraft.

You said

At the same time, it was reported that "the automotive type precision tooling at Willow Run had resulted in such uniformity of production that more than half of all of the Ford-built Liberators were accepted for delivery on their maiden flights," an unusually high percentage of plane approval.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Who was sabotaging the other 50 Percent that did not make it?


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
. Willow Run did not produce a plane until July 1942, and that one was a knockdown sent to a Douglas Aircraft assembly plant in Tulsa, Oklahoma. The first flyaway was not turned over to the United States Army until September 10, 1942.

I think we are looking at this situation differently.

I am pointing to a Luftwaffe Pilot in squadron service at a forward base who is flying combat missons daily saying that had to look for problems related to sabotage.

You are pointing acceptance test at the factory in US 5,000 miles away from the front lines. Those aircraft had to be first flown by a factory pilot then "accepted" by the AAF or USN, then flown across the country by the WAAC to a shipping area, transported to Europe or the South Pacific then flown from the staging area to the squadrons for "acceptance". If at that point 50% of the A/C had issues that would be a problem. And all of that was 1942 when the US was still figuring out the whole war effort thing.

However a Luftwaffe unit having to check for signs of sabotage points to another type of problem altogether.

Besides, by 1945 he could have walked back to Focke Wolf and picked up the spare parts himself <==Humor;)

[Deviant]

No matter what sim and no matter when,

You will always find those that will find evidence to support their view on history
no matter which way it goes.

To think that any one side had a huge technological advantage and superior intelligence when designing combat aircraft seems a bit silly.

All sides were dealing with the same physics and striving for the same basic goals.

Some planes covered a variety of performance goals with adequate numbers and some planes excelled in a few categories while being less than spectacular in others.

Typically in the end, the PILOT and his knowledge of his machine is what won a 1vs 1 fight. Along with the knowledge of what the enemies capabilities were.

To use an enemy evaluation of a plane they dont have the tools and supplies to maintain and run properly seems ludicrous to me.

[F4UDOA]

I had the chance to meet two former Black Sheep Squadron pilots at an airshow one time. I asked them about climb times, roll rates and top speeds. They looked at me like I had three heads, they never cared about any of that stuff. They were Marines carrying flying rifles whom where fighting a war. It was all about the guys they were fighting with no different than if they were dug into a hole on Iwo Jima.

However we are in a different position of analysing hardware that is more rare than a white elephant. All we have to use is old documents and a few annecdotes.

And when one of those documents, such as the Navy test flights of the FW190 comes to light it is worth more than a casual read especially when the aircraft test to be faster than the Luftwaffe records show it to have been. Granted the ailerons may have not been aligned properly. It must be considered that this was not done for propaganda but in preparation of a Marine assault using F4U-1D's carrying Tiny Tim rockets to attack V-1 and V-2 sites in Europe. The success of D-Day negated the operation but it was well into the planning phase before it was cancelled.