Author Topic: V-1 "Buzz Bomb" KILLS  (Read 3973 times)

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #90 on: January 22, 2006, 05:20:19 PM »
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The P-51's fuel load was 14.9% of the B-17's and 15.5% of the B-24's.


The breakdown for fighter fuel consumption is clearly listed, Milo.  Even at the requested supply quantities, it amounts to a rather small percentage of the fuel consumed.

Here we can see that just as clearly, the P51 made up the vast majority of the 8th USAAF FG's:
 


As the numbers of P51's using 100/150 grade increased in proportion to the ever growing number of aircraft, we should see a decline in the consumption.  In fact it only dips for a very short time period in the fall/winter.  By the middle of Feb. 1945 comsumption of 100/130 grade in Europe shoots back above the levels required in the early fall.

This hardly indicates a massive switch to a different fuel.


All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: January 22, 2006, 05:47:11 PM by Crumpp »

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #91 on: January 22, 2006, 05:39:46 PM »
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The Mustang III at +25 lbs boost had a 30-40 kph speed advantage over the C3 Eingspritzung G/F's. If you think a 30-50 kph speed advantage is 'comparable performance', then I guess you're right.


The Speed charts for the Mustang III are posted above.

FW-190G under different configurations with C3-Einspritzung, uncorrected speeds:

http://img143.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=ac01f_FW190speed.jpg

The FW-190 series had a positive correction of 20-26kph depending on the calculations at that speed.

http://img131.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=9879c_EB_104correction.jpg

http://img111.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=011c0_FW190A3f.jpg

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Sable

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« Reply #92 on: January 22, 2006, 05:44:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp

There was no 150-grade fuel ever produced in the US during the war.  145 grade was seen as the best compromise the technology could offer.  Even that was not produced in any substantial quantities and primarily for the Navy's newer aircraft.

That would leave England as the sole provider for both the RAF and the USAAF.
[/b]

No argument here.  

Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp

Assuming England provided 100 percent of the 100/150 grade fuel and the USAAF did not place a single drop in reserves, at the very most it would make up 30-50% of the fuel consumed.  

Now the assumption that nothing would have been placed in reserve is rather ludicrous .... SNIP
[/b]

And here we go into wild conjecture.  This is all addressed on Mike and Neil's page.  Go here and then read the very first section Intial Testing and Proposals.  Read all the linked documents completely.  Then scroll down to the section Into Service with the USAAF Eighth Air Force, and pay particular attention to this link.

In particular it says:

Quote

5.      The matter of supplying 150 grade fuel has been taken up with the Air Ministry. There is now approximately 30,000 tons of this fuel in storage at Stanlow. The production of 150-grade fuel is sufficient to take care of the fighter stations of the VIII Fighter Command based on their present rate of operations.


So we can see that there was already a reserve of 150 octane being built up before it went into operational use.

If you look in the link above you can see there is additional information, as well as estimates of peak 8th AF requirements.  Mike and Neil's site then goes on to describe delivery of the fuel to 8th AF fighter stations, once again with multiple documents to back this up.

Next we have this document which talks about production and supply of 150 octane fuel in November of 44.



Note that the production supply is 12 million US gallons, while the USAAF requirement is about 7.5 million US gallons (which nicely matches the 6 million UK gallon approximation given above for typical monthly requirement for the 8th AF fighter command).  It also states that future demand will increase as RAF demand for the fuel increases, but ultimate demand will still fall below maximum production output.  We can see from this that there were clearly adequete supply and reserve for 8th AF fighter command operations.



Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp

Lastly, although the 8th USAAF was enthusiastic, the 9th USAAF summed up the operational performance increase of 100/150 grade:

 

Which simply make the fuel not worth it to fighter pilot who is watching is power decrease with every passing hour.  It would not be long until your performance is below what your could have achieved using the less corrosive 100/130 grade.
[/b]

Unfortunately, the 9th AF's opinion on the worth of 150 octane fuel, as well as your opinion on it's worth are immaterial.  What is important is that the 8th AF did choose to use the fuel, which is spelled out quite clearly.  

We can see from the documents, veterans statements and photos:
that the 8th AF tested it, found it's use acceptable and worthwhile, found adequete supply, delivered it to their airfields (replacing the old grade), and used it operationally from summer of 1944 through the end of the war in europe.  We can also see from 8th AF Fighter Command operational record, that while they were increased maintenance issues brought on, it never caused enough accidents or aborts to hamper operations.


Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp

You should probably check the operational condition of the aircraft.  Both TAF ground attack fighters and Long range escorts mounted wing racks just as the FW-190G/F series.   The FW-190F/G series could do 580-600kph on the deck using C3 Eingspritzung.  Very comparible performance.
 

You keep wanting to the quote this performance:

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/mustang-fig4.jpg

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/rae1501.html

As average Mustang III performance in spite of the fact the vast majority of these "performance" comparisons in these games are pure silliness.

All the best,

Crumpp


Actually I would point to the charts on   this  page as giving an accurate example of Mustang performance.  They bear out the 10-15mph speed increase below critical altitude described in the reports above.

And with regard to 100/130 consumption, given that both 8th AF bomber command, and the 9th AF used this grade of fuel it's no surprise that it continued to be used in large quantities.  Especially given that the 9th AF really got busy with their tactical mission after D-Day.

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Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #94 on: January 22, 2006, 05:49:36 PM »
Yes please check it out since everyone seems to have missed me posting it:

http://www.au.af.mil/au/afhra/wwwroot/aafsd/aafsd_pdf/t186and187.pdf

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: January 22, 2006, 06:05:04 PM by Crumpp »

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #95 on: January 22, 2006, 06:04:39 PM »
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And with regard to 100/130 consumption, given that both 8th AF bomber command, and the 9th AF used this grade of fuel it's no surprise that it continued to be used in large quantities. Especially given that the 9th AF really got busy with their tactical mission after D-Day.


The 9th AF argument does not hold water nor do any of the other smoke/mirrors posted.  I said from the begining that having supply documents is not the same as operational documents.  The 9th was under the North African fuel distribution district and not Europe.
 

If you guys want to your game shape to be faster, I will support it.  

Just don't try and pass it off as history which inspite of Widewings attempted character assasination, comes from a reliable source at the USAF Museum.


All the best,

Crumpp

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #96 on: January 22, 2006, 06:05:50 PM »
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Originally posted by Crumpp
The breakdown for fighter fuel consumption is clearly listed, Milo.  Even at the requested supply quantities, it amounts to a rather small percentage of the fuel consumed.

Here we can see that just as clearly, the P51 made up the vast majority of the 8th USAAF FG's:  
Clearly? :rofl

Better do another scan, for that one is unreadable.

You said USAAF. Nice squirm.

In Dec 44, ETO fighters:

P-51 - 1515
P-47 - 1735

For the complete list: http://www.au.af.mil/au/afhra/wwwroot/aafsd/aafsd_pdf/t089.pdf

The P-47 carried ~40% more internal fuel, so it can be seen which a/c burned more fuel, never mind that the P-47 often flew 2 missions/day while the P-51s usually flew only every 2 or 3 days with the bombers.

Be sure the Fw190F/G could do 600kph on the deck. To bad that German fuel had some problems:

"From other documents I know that C3 and B4 had severe quality problems beginning in late 1944. While it was not much of a problem with low boost, it had some serious effect on higher boost" (Butch2k).
« Last Edit: January 22, 2006, 06:10:39 PM by MiloMorai »

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #97 on: January 22, 2006, 06:08:39 PM »
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Sable Says:

Actually I would point to the charts on this page as giving an accurate example of Mustang performance. They bear out the 10-15mph speed increase below critical altitude described in the reports above.


Look down the page, that is Neils chart I posted that comes from your link.

Please bother to read what I post before you simply refute it due to some game shape paranoia.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #98 on: January 22, 2006, 06:14:41 PM »
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In Dec 44, ETO fighters:


Milo,

The topic is 100/150 grade use.  At the moment the bone of contention is the 8th Fighter Commands supposed full time adoption of the fuel.

Not the USAAF in Europe as it there is no contention the fuel was used anywhere else.

The chart I posted is specifically from the 8th Fighter Command:

 

Please read the topic.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #99 on: January 22, 2006, 06:17:24 PM »
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"From other documents I know that C3 and B4 had severe quality problems beginning in late 1944. While it was not much of a problem with low boost, it had some serious effect on higher boost" (Butch2k).

T
You keep posting this?? What does this have to do with this thread??

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #100 on: January 22, 2006, 06:29:47 PM »
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Originally posted by Crumpp
You keep posting this?? What does this have to do with this thread??


Because you introduced it with your claim for the Fw190's speed.

Quote
Very comparible performance.


So hard to get compariable speed with crappy fuel.

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #101 on: January 22, 2006, 06:59:25 PM »
Well considering the test I posted is an earlier 1943 test and the formula for C3 increased it's rating to mid 140's by 1945 who knows what the performance would have been.

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #102 on: January 22, 2006, 07:05:18 PM »
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Well considering the test I posted is an earlier 1943 test and the formula for C3 increased it's rating to mid 140's by 1945 who knows what the performance would have been.
Be sure, with 'C3 and B4 having severe quality problems beginning in late 1944. While it was not much of a problem with low boost, it had some serious effect on higher boost'.

Offline Sable

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« Reply #103 on: January 22, 2006, 09:50:06 PM »
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Originally posted by Crumpp
The 9th AF argument does not hold water nor do any of the other smoke/mirrors posted.  I said from the begining that having supply documents is not the same as operational documents.  The 9th was under the North African fuel distribution district and not Europe.
 


Crumpp, you are the one using smoke and mirrors.  

This  clearly shows that the 8th AF monthly demand for 150 octane is expected to be in the range of 6-7.5 million IMP gallons (7.2-9 million US gallons) and that this was withing the supply capacity of UK production.

This document:



clearly shows that the monthly requirement of 150 octane is 20,000 tons (7.5 million US gallons) and states that this is within the supply capacity of UK production.  

From this link we can add up the 8th AF fighter sorties for Nov of 1944, and see that they flew 12,836 operational sorties for the month. At this point most of the 8th AF fighters were P-51s, which could carry a max of 489 US gallons (this total includes 2 110 gallon drop tanks).  Now supposing for the sake of argument that they used every drop of gas on every operational sortie that month, that only totals 6.3 million US gallons used.  Given that the fighters never used all of their gas (if they did, large numbers of them would have been failing to make it home), and often didn't even need to drop their tanks, this puts us well under the 7.5 million US gallon supply requirement of 150 octane with room to spare for training, local flights, maintenance, waste, etc.

The link you posted which is labeled "Gasoline consumption of airplanes with units in ETO" shows a consumption by fighters of 10.8 million US gallons.  It makes no mention of fuel grade, or airforce.  Simply that the units were "in ETO".  Logically we would assume it is showing both 8th and 9th AF consumption given that the consumption total is FAR beyond the operational requirement of the 8th AF.  Especially given that we have other documents that clearly state the 8th AF's supply and requirements for 150 octane fuel, and that those requirements much more closely match their actual useage based on operational sorties.  This makes it clear that the 8th AF had enough supply of 150 octane fuel for all of their operational sorties.

(I also totaled the sorties for August 1944, just to give another random sample - 17,546 x 489 gallons = 8.6 million total, well below the 14.7 million on your chart for Aug 44 - and a large percentage of these missions were short range fighter bomber attacks in france which would have used much less fuel, and no drop tanks so 8th AF fighter consumption was almost certainly much lower then the 8.6mil I arrived at)

When we combine this with the fact that we also have docs showing that they tested the aircraft with the 150 octane fuel, found it worthwhile to use,  delivered it to the stations (replacing the old 100/130), and used it, along with statements from pilots and ground crew describing using the fuel operationally, and photos of aircraft remarked for use with 150 octane fuel, it's an open and shut case in favor of Freeman's overview.  

With regard to the actual performance of the fighters, the charts and reports on Neil's site clearly list the state of the aircraft.  If you bother to read, a number of them are tested with wing racks installed.  Clearly, there is a  performance increase in both speed and RoC.

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #104 on: January 22, 2006, 10:43:51 PM »
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clearly shows that the monthly requirement of 150 octane is 20,000 tons (7.5 million US gallons) and states that this is within the supply capacity of UK production.
Be sure, Sable.