109 Flaps

[Furball]

look on the bright side, they may do nothing, but with flaps down it will make the wings bigger targets on dead 6 shots for america planes!!! yey!

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by Grits
It cant make them worse though can it?

Flaps dont do anything. They're just there for looks. All this crap about added lift and stabilization at low speeds is simply a load BS fairy tails... Myths at best.

[Angus]

109 Flaps: hand cranked. I have not seen a combat report where the pilot used them. But they had slots, which worked well most of the time.
190 flaps: Electically deployed? Useable to high speeds I belive.
P51 flaps? A lever, fully mechanical.

And this from Kweassa:
"However, the P-47. This plane is almost twice heavier than the Bf109s, and at least 3,000lbs heavier than the Fw190s"

Look at the wings and wingloading. The difference should be less then, but a 109 should normally (in the same timeframe) easily turn inside a P47.
Both of them really, and EASILY.

[Kweassa]

Look at the wings and wingloading. The difference should be less then, but a 109 should normally (in the same timeframe) easily turn inside a P47.
Both of them really, and EASILY.

 
 Yes, it should.

 Except it doesn't.

[Urchin]

Kweassa,

I'm sure you did this a while ago and I actually even vaguely recall some of it...  What were the other planes that were unable to go to the lowest setting on the stall limiter?  Was the La-7 one, by any chance?  

Also, do you think someone who was used to "fighting" the plane through the turn could get the most (or at least a lot more) out of it than someone who was not?  I ask because I used to be practically alone in my opinion that the La-7 and G-10 were a match for a P-51D in a "turn-fight" (not knife fight per se.. but a circlejerk fight), because when I was flying them, they were.  

It was hard as hell to get them to turn, but they could stick with a P-51 in the circlejerk.  I don't know if that is true anymore, maybe the FMs have changed since I quit playing or something.

That is an interesting bit of research there.

[Kweassa]

The results are in the turn radius thread, linked at my sig. But for you, I'll compile them here for easier comparison.


Fighter Name (SL setting normal / SL one notch flaps / SL full flaps)
* fighters listed without SL settings for flaps are those that can use one setting throughout the entire testing

List of entire fighters
A6M2 (0.05)
A6M5b (0.05)
Bf109E-4 (1.0/1.1/1.2)
Bf109F-4 (1.0/1.2/1.2)
Bf109G-2 (1.0/1.2/1.2)
Bf109G-6 (1.0/1.2/1.2)
Bf109G-14 (1.0/1.2/1.2)
Bf109K-4 (1.0/1.2/1.2)
Bf110C-4 (0.05)
Bf110G-2 (1.0)
C.202 (0.05)
C.205 (1.0)
F4F-4 (0.05)
FM-2 (0.05)
F4U-1 (1.0)
F4U-1D (1.0)
F4U-1C (1.0)
F4U-4 (1.0)
F6F-5 (1.0)
Fw190A-5 (1.0/1.5/1.5)
Fw190A-8 (1.0/1.5/1.5)
Fw190D-9 (1.0/1.5/1.5)
Fw190F-8 (1.0/1.5/1.5)
Hurricane Mk.Ia (0.05)
Hurricane Mk.IIc (0.05)
Hurricane Mk.IId (0.05)
Ki-61-I-Tei (0.05)
Ki-84-I-Ko (0.05)
La-5FN (0.05)
La-7 (0.05)
Me163B (0.05)
Me262A (0.05)
Mosquito Mk.VI (0.05)
N1K2-J (0.05)
P-38G (0.05)
P-38J (0.05)
P-38L (0.05)
P-40B (1.0)
P-40E (1.0)
P-47D-11 (0.05)
P-47D-25 (0.05)
P-47D-40 (0.05)
P-51B (0.05)
P-51D (0.05)
Spitfire Mk.Ia (0.05)
Spitfire Mk.V (0.05)
Seafire Mk.II (0.05)
Spitfire Mk.IX (0.05)
Spitfire Mk.VIII (0.05)
Spitfire Mk.XVI (0.05)
Spitfire Mk.XIV (0.05)
Ta152H-1 (1.0)
Typhoon Mk.Ib (0.05)
Tempest Mk.V (0.05)
Yak-9T (0.05)
Yak-9U (0.05)

List of those cannot use minimal settings
Bf109E-4 (1.0/1.1/1.2)
Bf109F-4 (1.0/1.2/1.2)
Bf109G-2 (1.0/1.2/1.2)
Bf109G-6 (1.0/1.2/1.2)
Bf109G-14 (1.0/1.2/1.2)
Bf109K-4 (1.0/1.2/1.2)
Bf110G-2 (1.0)
C.205 (1.0)
F4U-1 (1.0)
F4U-1D (1.0)
F4U-1C (1.0)
F4U-4 (1.0)
F6F-5 (1.0)
Fw190A-5 (1.0/1.5/1.5)
Fw190A-8 (1.0/1.5/1.5)
Fw190D-9 (1.0/1.5/1.5)
Fw190F-8 (1.0/1.5/1.5)
P-40B (1.0)
P-40E (1.0)
Ta152H-1 (1.0)

- Bf109 variants (6)
- Fw190 variants (5)
- F4U variants (4)
- Miscel. (5)

 So, while 20 planes cannot use thes settings, which seems a lot, actually half of them are 109s and 190s. The only other major plane with a number of variants that cannot handle the minimal setting, is the F4U. Speaking cynically, basically our 109s and 190s are in the same league as the "Ensign Eliminator" when it comes to maneuvering stability.

Also, do you think someone who was used to "fighting" the plane through the turn could get the most (or at least a lot more) out of it than someone who was not? I ask because I used to be practically alone in my opinion that the La-7 and G-10 were a match for a P-51D in a "turn-fight" (not knife fight per se.. but a circlejerk fight), because when I was flying them, they were.

 Here's what I think.

 The tested results are mechanical, and could be considered absolutely devoid of human factor. If what you are asking is that if human factor can alter the results enough to change the outcome, then my answer is "yes".

 The problem is, when the human factor is assumed at a simular level, the characteristics of the plane in question are so malevolent that it reverses the historically known outcome. The opinion that a 109 would have a handy amount of advantage over the P-51 or a P-47 in slow-speed fights, was shared by pilots of both sides historically. However in AH, the results are often reversed.

 In all likeliness, people who fly planes always make some kind of mistakes, big and small. However, one plane is so forgiving to that mistake as to remain stable right up to the stalling point, and overthrow the advantage of the other plane decisively, while the other is so unforgiving that a slight mistake immediately deprives the plane of its maneuvering advantage, preventing it from reaching its full potential - even with a considerable amount of pilot skill.

...and this, is with the Gustavs, which have a distinctly smaller turn radius than a P-47 or P-51, but still routinely get outmaneuvered them during flat turn contests that start out as a one circle fight. The K-4 has almost exactly same turn radius as the P-51, but stability is far worse. Unless a pilot employs other methods of combat, such as utilizing the climb, IMO there is no way for a Bf109K-4 to win a turn fight against a P-51 starting out at co-E situation.

[Angus]

Wow, Kweassa, you do a lot of serious work here!
Anyway, last time I had a sustained turnfight with a 109 (P47 D11 lite vs a 109F unknown) the 109 outturned me. It was from 10K down to rock, and ended with a screaming stall and flaps and all.
But....it was a long time ago. Shortly before AH II I think.

Anyway, if you wanna do some tests, or need some comparison, let me know, maybe me and a pal of mine can ease your workload

We did some testing of turning, not so scientifical, but as in combat. and we do many tests, and swap planes. A 109F would outturn a Spit IX if the Spit had full fuel and a droptank while the 109 was 1/2. Stuff like that. Basically, our results did not change even if we swapped planes.

[Stang]

What's wierd to me is the difference in the stalls between 109 variants.  All are very unstable, the F being the most to me, yet the g14 and g6 stalls seem much less harsh... anyone else get this feeling?

[bozon]

Kweassa,
All 109s out turn the P47 accoring to your own turn ability test. By significant margin in the "turn rate" category. 109G-10, worst turning 109, completes a turn 20% quicker than a jug, if that is not significan't, I don't know what is.
190s turn about the same in rate and slightly larger circle. Light Jugs have lower wingloading that a 190A8 last time I checked so I'm not suprised.

Bf109G-10 (1.0/1.3/1.3)
MG151/20
- 18 seconds (176mph), 225.5m
- 19 seconds (163mph), 220.4m
- 19 seconds (142mph), 192.0m

Fw190A-8 (1.0/1.5)
4xMG151/20
- 23 seconds (181mph), 296.3m
- 21 seconds (171mph), 255.6m
- N/A

P-47D-40 (0.05)
- 24 seconds (159mph), 271.6m
- 22 seconds (151mph), 236.4m
- 23 seconds (124mph), 203.0m

The stall limiter number don't mean that much. If HTC will set the stall buzzer to go off a little earlier for 109s, you'd believe the 109 can really be pushed into the stall.
I agree with you that most planes are too stable, and I think torque is not pronounced enough. However, the claim that 109s are outturned by P47s is simply not true and btw, neither by P51s by your test.

Bozon

[storch]

geez you guys, the german planes cannot be modelled at 100% fidelity.  there would be a mass exodus from the game turning this game into WB.  is that what you want?  those of us that choose to play in axis craft just have to accept that we will be handicapped 3-5% performance.  the challenge is to smack the allied players down irrespective of their edge.  it makes it more gratifying when we win.

[Kweassa]

All 109s out turn the P47 accoring to your own turn ability test. By significant margin in the "turn rate" category. 109G-10, worst turning 109, completes a turn 20% quicker than a jug, if that is not significan't, I don't know what is.

 bozon, this entire thread is basically about why planes that outturn others in contained test figures, cannot do so in real life in the MA.

 In the testings I had help from a 'newbie device', which made it impossible for me to any kind of mistakes in stick input. Take that away, put me into real-life MA action and I am gonna make a mistake, usually not a very big one but mistakes do happen.

 Put me in a P-51, in a stall fight, and my mistakes have a good chance to go unnoticed, but put me in a 109, and the slightest input problem will destabilize the plane, and blow all that advantage in turning radius away immediately. The 109 requires almost inhuman level of micro control to push it up to stall and still retain some sort of controllability, and that usually translates to a plane with significantly heavier weight and larger turn radius outmaneuvering it.

 With all due respect, put me against great pilots like you or Yucca, Frenchy, Redtop in their P-47s, and basically my 109 doesn't stand a chance. What's funny is, usually a better maneuvering plane is supposed to act as a handicap-filler and increase the chance for the pilot with lesser skill to fight on equal terms with better pilots in clumsier machinery - which in the case of 109, actually feels more like handicap-giver. How will I able to utilize the better turning radius as an advantage, when I have to pass through a needle's eye to get there?


 ... but anyhow, since you agree on the basic premise that some AH planes are too stable, I am glad.

[Glasses]

fgfds

[Angus]

I find the 109 to turn quite nicely. Just don't mix it with a Spitty!


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[1K3]

Originally posted by storch
geez you guys, the german planes cannot be modelled at 100% fidelity.  there would be a mass exodus from the game turning this game into WB.  is that what you want?  those of us that choose to play in axis craft just have to accept that we will be handicapped 3-5% performance.  the challenge is to smack the allied players down irrespective of their edge.  it makes it more gratifying when we win.

what BS are you talking abiout?

im sure 110 is modeled 100%.  it can loop wit 109/190, 51s, 47s, 38s, and even spits anytime by using its flaps and POP them with 4x 20mm + 2x 30mm guns.

[Urchin]

He's passing through the "I'm the bestest pilot EVAR, so if I lose the plane must be modelled wrong!" phase.

Most Luftwobbles (myself included) go through it at some point in their virtual careers.  Happily, most of them get through it (myself included, I think).