MyDavis

[Nashwan]

actually I meant Crime rate in general, specificly we are discussing Gun Crime and Gun control

So you've backed away from the claim that the murder rate in the UK is actually three times the reported level?

The murder rate in England is reported to be actually lower than the united states but gaining fast.

Not really. The US experienced a large drop in murder in the 90s, but the figures for both countries have been stable since 2000.

But Rape, muggings, robbings, assaults, are all much higher.

Let's compare, shall we?

Rape:

FBI recorded rapes: 94,635
England and Wales: 12,354 (the US has approx 5.5 times the population)

Robbery:

FBI: 401,326
E&W: 88,710

Assault:

FBI: 854,911 (the FBI only records "aggravated assault", which they define as "an unlawful attack by one person upon another for the purpose of inflicting severe or aggravated bodily injury. The Program further specifies that this type of assault is usually accompanied by the use of a weapon or by other means likely to produce death or great bodily harm."

England and Wales: 43,829 (includes attempted murder, threats or conspiracy to murder, wounding or other acts endangering life)

The assault categories don't compare well together, because the FBI only records serious assaults, whereas the UK records all assaults. However, breaking down the British figures as above gives a fairly close approximation. The US figures are so high because assault with a weapon, even if it is not fired, counts as aggravated assault.

we can assume, that these general crimes are not being done with Twinkies. Knowing the toughness of the english, nothing but a gun would allow these crimes to occur.

Nothing but a gun allows robbery, assault, rape?

The police record firearms crime, the percentages of crimes involving firearms (which includes replica guns and air weapons):

Robbery: 4.1% (ie 4.1% of robberies were carried out with guns or imitation guns)
Burglary: 0.095%
Rape: not recorded
Assault: 0.75%

The only comparable figure for the US is:

Robbery: 40.6%

Burglary figures don't record the use of firearms, assault figures are only for aggravated assault, which is the most serious form of assault.

logicly then, we can say that either the english are much more likely to assualt/rape/mug thier victims and then not kill them, or that English medical care is better after they are shot,

Or that the abscence of guns means they are far less likely to get shot.

Look at the comparable figures again. The use of firearms in robberies in the US is ten times as high as the UK, and a great many of the UK robberies are with imitation guns, because the real ones are so hard to get hold of.

or as many suggest the reporting is in error.

Can you give any credible source that suggests that? ie, not a pro gun lobby group.

This is a bit like arguing with certain Russians, who claim that the press in the US only reports what the government allows them to report. It's complete nonsense.

Either way, the argument for gun control working in england does not seem to be valid.

It doesn't if you make assumptions that the crime rate is higher than it is, that more people are getting murdered than reported, that guns are used in far more crimes, etc.

Assuming the criminials in the US and England have the same morals and motivations, we can look at a micronism in the US as a sterling example of how gun control doesnt work.

In the District of Columbia, (nations capitol) which has very strict gun control similiar to Englands, the crime and murder rate has skyrocketed.
In an 8 mile square city surrounded by water (similiar to england) there are over 500 murders per year, more than half are unsolved.

How hard is it for someone from DC to buy a gun in a neighbouring state? IIRC, about 60% of the guns traced in DC come from Virginia and Maryland.

This argument is rather like the old left wing local governments in Britain in the 1980s, who declared themselves "nuclear free zones". Pointless, if it's just a local policy.

the State of Virginia, (right next door ) which borders DC has some of the most lenient citiizen gun laws in the US, any citizen who is not a felon or considered mentally impaired can apply for and carry a concealed weapon,
Virginia with over 1000 times the population and 1500 times the land mass, has less murders than the District of columbia.

Virginia has 1,000 times the population of DC? DC has a population of 570,000, if Virginia had a population 1000 times that, it would have about double the population of the entire US. As Virginia is part of the US, I don't see how that could work.

Virginia actually has a population about 12 times that of DC, and has about twice as many murders, although a much lower murder rate. More facts from gunowners.com?

Murder rates in US are highly skewed because of cities like New york and DC where the citizens are not allowed to carry guns.

Actually New York has a lower murder rate than the US average, so skews the rate downwards. Arizona, which has amongst the least gun restictions, has a murder rate substantially above the US average. Louisiana, which has the highest murder rate of any state, allows pretty free access to guns.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Mr. Toad
....jail time for those that own TV sets and don't pay the tax.

Nonsense. The maximum penalty is a £1000 fine, according to the TV Licensing website: http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/information/detectionandpenalties.jsp#link1

Using a TV or any other device to receive or record TV programmes (for example, a VCR, set-top box, DVD recorder or PC with a broadcast card) without a valid TV Licence is against the law and could lead to prosecution and a fine of up to £1,000, not to mention the embarrassment and hassle of a court appearance.

What I want to know is where some Americans dig up all this propaganda. If someone went to jail, it would be because they refused to pay the fine. That would in itself constitute contempt of court, an entirely different offence. Oh wait, I've just found Mr. Toad's link: http://www.turnoffyourtv.com/international/bbc.html The author, pontificating about TV licensing in the UK is Ron Kaufman, who appears to be an American (surprise, surprise) anti-TV campaigner, amongst other roles. No bias at all then!


Nashwan - - nice post this morning. I could have warned mydavis not to spout propaganda and pass it off as "facts" when you were around, but then again it was just too much fun to see him step right into the mire up to his neck.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by mydavis
in Fact every single amendment to the US constitution contrains the power of the federal goverment.  

Is this another of your "facts"? The text of the 18th amendment is as follows:  

Section 1. After one year from the ratification of this article the manufacture, sale, or transportation of intoxicating liquors within, the importation thereof into, or the exportation thereof from the United States and all territory subject to the jurisdiction thereof for beverage purposes is hereby prohibited.

Section 2. The Congress and the several States shall have concurrent power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Section 3. This article shall be inoperative unless it shall have been ratified as an amendment to the Constitution by the legislatures of the several States, as provided in the Constitution, within seven years from the date of the submission hereof to the States by the Congress.

In what way does this amendment "constrain the power of the federal government"?

The murder rate in England is reported to be actually lower than the united states but gaining fast.

Nope. According to Home Office stats, it's remaining fairly constant. The chart that follows shows the number of homicides over a period of 10+ years. There has been a gradual increase in the number, consistent with the rise in population. That is to say the homicide rate has remained fairly static. You will notice a spike for 2002 - this was caused by the murders committed by the serial killer Doctor Harold Shipman being lumped into that one year after the case against him was closed. Shipman actually committed hundreds of murders over many years.

Actually no, Constitutional laws in both England and US, promote freedoms not restrict them.

England does not have a constitution. Try again.

Either way, the argument for gun control working in england does not seem to be valid.

Read my sig.



SOB! Sorry dude - your query got lost in the fur! Yes, we have Satellite TV. In fact I have a satellite dish on the side of my house left there by the previous owner, but I don't use it. Here's a link about Sky Digital TV satellite broadcasting: http://www.freesatellite.co.uk The neat thing about it is that the channels can be viewed in other parts of the world. So for example, next week when I'm 2000 miles from home in the Canary Islands, I'll still be able to watch English football matches on the SkySports channel.

[lazs2]

curval... you are really gonna try to tell me that the government collecting a fee (tax) for every TV in the country and then giving it out to only one company.... that the government has no real control over content?

That is the basic difference between our countries.... you simply trust an all powerful government to do the right thing with YOUR money.   We do not.

Your documents suggest rights so long as they are "reasonable" (defined by the government)   ours are rock solid "shall not"  against a government that we realize gets more corrupt the more power it has.

No thread has proved how a subject is different than a citizen in every way more than this one.... thanks for that.

lazs

[Curval]

"That is the basic difference between our countries.... you simply trust an all powerful government to do the right thing with YOUR money. We do not."

So, when you paid your taxes (no doubt by deduction rather than actually physically paying) you told your government how to spend it and they agreed?

lol

Try again lazs.

[lazs2]

well.... I didn't pay em a seperate tax in order to watch TV.   I didn't pay em half of every dollar or more at the pumps to do as they pleased nor did I ask em to tax me to socialize medicine...

I admit that we pay too much in taxes and that we are not following our constitution as much as we should be but.... we still have it better than anyone else.   And... the vast majority of us will do everything to keep it that way..

The fact that you don't see any difference in the tax paid and amounts of socialism in the various countries seems odd given your profession.

The fact that you don't understand people can probly be attributed to living on a tiny little island and is not your fault.

lazs

[Curval]

Originally posted by lazs2
The fact that you don't see any difference in the tax paid and amounts of socialism in the various countries seems odd given your profession.
 

I think you are the one who is confused...again.

You said THIS a while back:

"curval... you are correct. your little island of fantasy under the socialist umbrella is like well... a resort for the socialists.. enjoy it... "

So, my little island is a socialist one according to you in this older thread.

But now you are equating socialism to more tax...and yet we have NO income taxes here.

Your efforts to box me into your classic stereotypes is quite funny.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Curval
So, when you paid your taxes (no doubt by deduction rather than actually physically paying) you told your government how to spend it and they agreed?

 

[Mustaine]

Originally posted by beet1e
Just another day in LA, but oh! the freedom.....

from a michael douglas movie made by hollyweird.

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by beet1e
Is this another of your "facts"? The text of the 18th amendment is as follows:   In what way does this amendment "constrain the power of the federal government"?  

You probably should have chosen another amendment as an example.  You may have heard that the 18th was an admitted failure and was repealed.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Mustaine
from a michael douglas movie made by hollyweird.

Go to the LAPD website. In the search window, enter drive-by shooting - I have just done this, and came up with 1317 hits. That's 1317 reports of drive-by shootings in Los Angeles. Didn't take me long to find one that was "gang related".

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Holden McGroin
You probably should have chosen another amendment as an example.

I was waiting for you to come up with one of your hair-splitting retorts. But this won't do. mydavis categorically stated that "every single one" of the constitutional amendments had constrained the federal govt.

You may have heard that the 18th was an admitted failure and was repealed.

Wonder how long it will be before the same fate befalls the second amendment!

[beet1e]

Like I said, just another day in LA.

[mydavis]

Beetle

I said constitutioanal law----
The UK is one of the few countries in the world today that does not have a codified constitution, relying instead on customs and separate pieces of constitutional law.

and wait a minute, you actually believe that England a country of 52+ million people had only 68 gun murders last year. a rate slightly higher than 1 in 1,000,000. This would be the lowest rate ever By FAR, in the known world.
That would be incredible. The rest of the known world has a rate measured in % of 100,000  normally between 5 - 9% but by your count England has a rate of gun murder of 1% per 1,000,000.
That is Awesome !!

interestingly enough the incarceration rate in england is comparable every other industrialized nation, England just like the US , has problems with prison costs and overcrowding. but with the rate of crime as low as you say,
I wonder who is in englands prisons.
Oh England must be locking up criminals from the rest of the world, since it has almost no criminals of its own.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by mydavis
and wait a minute, you actually believe that England a country of 52+ million people had only 68 gun murders last year. a rate slightly higher than 1 in 1,000,000. This would be the lowest rate ever By FAR, in the known world.
That would be incredible. The rest of the known world has a rate measured in % of 100,000  normally between 5 - 9% but by your count England has a rate of gun murder of 1% per 1,000,000.
That is Awesome !!

I created that sig. block in 2004, which was when Nashwan said what he said, so he was referring to 2003. Yes, the number of gun homicides in Britain is about 50-90 a year, but as far as I am aware the tally has never exceeded 100. Gun homicides in Britain represent less than 10% of the overall homicide tally, which is usually around the 750 mark.

And now here's another LAPD report - this drive-by shooting was committed using an assault weapon - hey, isn't that the kind used by those guys in my movie stills??? Well, who would have thought it.


The second amendment at work - again