Author Topic: bin laden asks for truce  (Read 1942 times)

Offline moot

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bin laden asks for truce
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2006, 02:24:31 PM »
Nuts! it is.
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Offline weaselsan

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bin laden asks for truce
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2006, 02:29:14 PM »
OK Assoma, here's the deal. Have one of your cronies pick up a hand held GPS.... turn it on...read your cordinance... hrs...min....sec.. longitude and hrs...min....sec..latitude. Then phone these in to the pentagon. They will dispatch a peace treaty party from a ship in the Arabian Sea. Sit tight, it will only take an hour or so.

Offline Holden McGroin

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bin laden asks for truce
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2006, 02:51:20 PM »
"a conditional truce"

Bush should have made a statement outlining conditions which we could accept.

1. Osama must denounce the use of violence especially against civilians.

2. Osama must surrender to American troops with his top 20 or so deputies and accept imprisonment for the rest of his life. (or worse)

3. On world wide TV, Osama and his deputies must sing two verses of "The Star Spangled Banner", "God Save the Queen", and the Spanish, Austrailian and Indonesian national anthems, among others.

4. On world wide TV, Osama must put his head between his knees and kiss his own arse.
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Offline Momus--

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Re: Re: bin laden asks for truce
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2006, 02:57:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seagoon

Osama and friends are once again relying on the fact that most infidels haven't read the Quran and aren't familiar with Muslim doctrine.
 


I could equally claim that you're relying on the fact that your audience aren't familiar with the Quran in order to push your own dogma:

Some points for you:

Regarding Sura 9:5, and not 9:4 as you incorrectly label it, why didn't you quote the verses that come before and after the one you posted? Was it because they add context that would make a nonsense of your argument?

Quote
9:4 If the idol worshipers sign a peace treaty with you, and do not violate it, nor band together with others against you, you shall fulfill your treaty with them until the expiration date. GOD loves the righteous.


Quote
9:6 If one of the idol worshipers sought safe passage with you, you shall grant him safe passage, so that he can hear the word of GOD, then send him back to his place of security. That is because they are people who do not know.


Regarding the concept of Taqiyya, you're again presenting an incomplete picture. Taqiyya was generally held as a Shia concept that related to hiding one's affiliation from Sunni co-religionists for the purpose of avoiding persecution. Sunni acceptance of the permisability of Taqiyya is by no means universal; in fact many regard it as hypocrisy and to be avoided. So why do you present it as a universal tenet of Islam?

I find it interesting that someone with your ostensible background would make such omissions of context out of ignorance.

Comments?

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Re: Re: bin laden asks for truce
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2006, 04:20:14 PM »
See Rule #4, #5
« Last Edit: January 19, 2006, 04:40:43 PM by Skuzzy »
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Offline eagl

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bin laden asks for truce
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2006, 04:24:39 PM »
Maybe he just realized that 10-1 payback is on the low end of historical US responses, and he ought to quit now.  He got a few thousand of us, but the body count in the regions he purports to support have seen an (estimated) 30,000+ deaths.
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Offline Eagler

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Re: Re: Re: Re: bin laden asks for truce
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2006, 04:33:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
See Rule #4, #5


thought you left

right... a pastor of a small church in NC is no different than a cheekbones in the ME who advocates mass murder
« Last Edit: January 19, 2006, 04:41:00 PM by Skuzzy »
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Offline Seagoon

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bin laden asks for truce
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2006, 04:41:29 PM »
Hi Momus,

Sorry about mislabeling the verse, I have been known to mislabel verses in the Bible as well, even in sermons. Yet more evidence of my fallibility.

I sometimes wonder how much context you are going to require? Why not back up to the beginning of the chapter and then give the historical context?

"A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:- . Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him.  And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith. " (Quran, Suras 9:1-3)

The context of course is the declaration of Muhammad that the treaties and alliances that the Arabian tribes that had accepted Islam had entered into with tribes and peoples that had not, were now abrogated. The reason for doing this was in order to make it possible for these tribes to wage Jihad against their former allies (particularly in Mecca). In some cases this involved breaking historic links forged by marriage or even payment. These solemn vows were declared null and void. They are then told they can employ any strategem in waging war against those who do not believe, until they either cease resisting and are subjugated or become Muslims themselves.

Al Taqiyaa as a doctrine, is indeed more formally accepted by Shia, but as the Shia scholars have pointed out for Sunnis to say that they don't have a doctrine of dissimulation is to ignore their own scholars and history and more importantly the Quran and the Hadiths.

I would encourage you strongly, for instance, to actually read "The Reliance of the Traveller" which has long been one of the most oft quoted manuals of Islamic Law in the Sunni Community. Decent translations are now available in English via Amazon (although the translator avoids certain subjects that will appall Westerners, so for instance if you want Islamic law on Slavery you'll need to learn Arabic.)

Anyway, here are a few extracts from that text on the Sunni doctrine of "permissible lying":

"PERMISSIBLE LYING

r8.2     The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, ``He who settles disagreements between people to bring about good or says something commendable is not a liar.''

This much is related by both Bukhari and Muslim, with Muslim's version recording that Umm Kulthum added, ``I did not hear him permit untruth in anything people say, except for three things: war, settling disagreements and a man talking with his wife or she with him (A:in smoothing over differences),''

[Seagoon note - this ^^^^ refers to a quote from the Hadiths regarding what Muhammad [him] said]

"This is an explicit statement that lying is sometimes permissible for a given interest, scholars having established criteria defining what types of it are lawful.  The best analysis of it I have seen is by Imam Abu Hamid Ghazali, who says: "Speaking  is a means to achieve objectives.  If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it.  When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible (N:i.e. when the purpose of lying is to circumvent someone who is preventing one from doing something permissible), and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory. When for example one is concealing a muslim from an oppressor who asks where he is, it is obligatory to lie about his being hidden.  Or when a person deposits an article with one for safekeeping and an oppressor wanting to appropriate it inquires about it, it is obligatory to lie about having concealed it, for if one informs him about the article and he then siezes it, one is financially liable(A: to the owner)to cover the article's cost.  Whether the purpose is war, settling a disagreement, or gaining the sympathy of a victim legally entitled to retaliate against one so that he will forbear to do so; it is not unlawful to lie when any of these aims can only be attained through lying.
...
r10.3 Scholars say that there is no harm (def: p8.2( A: )) in giving a misleading impression if required by an interest countenanced by Sacred Law that is more important than not misleading the person being addressed, or if there is a pressing need which could not otherwise be fulfilled except through lying."

[The Reliance of the Traveller, translated by NOAH HA MIM KELLER]

If you simply peruse the Sunni English Language Islamic centers on the Internet, you'll see how highly acclaimed this work is.

That's the pattern, the custom, and the religious teaching. Lying in the case of Holy War, especially when it is a lie to told to an infidel "oppressor" is permissible. Merely wanting to believe something else isn't going to change that.

Do you seriously believe that Osama is honestly offering this "truce"? Additionally, how do you explain AQ breaking their "agreement" to stop attacks in Al-Andalus if the Spaniards withdrew from Iraq?
 
- SEAGOON
« Last Edit: January 19, 2006, 04:46:33 PM by Seagoon »
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Offline Furball

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bin laden asks for truce
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2006, 04:41:56 PM »
why not invite bin laden and co. into a nice secure rooms so you can 'talk' it out....
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: bin laden asks for truce
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2006, 04:56:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
thought you left

right... a pastor of a small church in NC is no different than a cheekbones in the ME who advocates mass murder



Preaching and promoting intolerance is the same, whether it be from a pastor in a small town in NC or some guy hiding in a cave in Afghanistan.



ack-ack
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Offline Seagoon

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bin laden asks for truce
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2006, 05:10:56 PM »
You better repent and believe the Gospel Ack, or I might just finally snap and be forced to go to the extreme of saying "repent and believe" again only this time, I'll add an exclamation mark at the end.

Don't make me go there man... Don't you know that I'm loco essay?

- SEAGOON
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Offline Momus--

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bin laden asks for truce
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2006, 05:40:44 PM »
You're missing the point Seagoon. I don't care if the Bin Laden offer is genuine or not although I suspect that the reports are untrue. The problem is that you are presenting verses as undisputed evidence for your position that people like Bin-Laden represent the underlying mainstream of Islamic doctrine whilst omitting context that doesn't support that view. You've just done it again because you fail to mention that Sura 9 is referring to a real event, the Battle of Tabouk that took place in Arabia in 630AD. By your standards I may as well cite Deuteronomy 7.1 & 2 as allowing for the Jews of 2006 to ethnically cleanse palestine of all non-jews:

Quote
When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girga****es, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them


Ridiculous no?

As for the Ghazali citations; what do you think they prove?

One is permitted to lie in war time. Well no kidding? Didn't Churchill write that the first casualty of war is the truth?

One is obliged to lie if protecting someone from an oppressor? Sounds like a nice rule to me.

I'm not quite sure what you think the significance of al-Ghazali's work is in this context. Whether Bin Laden can use it to legitimize his actions is moot since he represents only himself and a relatively small number of deviants. I'm quite happy for you to asign the worst of motives to his movement, as long as we're clear that it is just his band of extremists that we're referring to.

Offline superpug1

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bin laden asks for truce
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2006, 05:43:54 PM »
I have an idea. y not do what they did in the robot movie, u know where each country has a giant robot and to settle disputes they just fight in this HUGE colosium. Or like what happened in that show where america and China where at war. Each country sent one of its best soldiers to this island, there they had to kill each other. Whoever won settled the war.:noid

Offline Hawklore

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bin laden asks for truce
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2006, 06:02:30 PM »
Go for the truce, invite to dinner of peace, arrest...

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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: Re: Re: bin laden asks for truce
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2006, 06:13:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Momus--
So why do you present it as a universal tenet of Islam?

I find it interesting that someone with your ostensible background would make such omissions of context out of ignorance.

Comments?


Psst.  What you had better be concerned about is if the "Great, Infamous, Iranian Missisle Defense System" of yours works.  Btw, you just broke a window.  

The day I care what YOU think, well, that day will never come.  

To hell with OBL and his backers, supporters, etc.  I'll screw the 70 virgins first.  

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