Author Topic: How good were German a/c radios?  (Read 3391 times)

Offline Angus

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How good were German a/c radios?
« Reply #75 on: January 27, 2006, 07:12:24 PM »
Ooohhh.
A good read?

ISBN???????????????
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Crumpp

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How good were German a/c radios?
« Reply #76 on: January 27, 2006, 07:45:05 PM »
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A good read?


Yeah did you read that thread Wotan linked over at TOCH?

Read it.  It is worth it and gives some really good reviews.  It also blows Wotan smear campaign against this book out of the water.

Read the whole thing and not just the first few post's.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Bruno

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How good were German a/c radios?
« Reply #77 on: January 27, 2006, 07:45:13 PM »
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Hardly a fair treatment of David Isby's work.


Sure it is. It offers criticism and counterpoint and leaves the final opinion up to the reader.

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This is stated numerous times in the book.


That maybe but we aren't talking so much about what Isby wrote or Schmid is claimed to have said but what you say 'they really meant'. If you offer the comments attributed to Schmid as irrefutable evidence of your position then its only fair that your source get a proper examination. Not everyone thinks Isby's book is well done, some think it was 'adequate' and that's what that thread shows. Interestingly enough those writing on behalf of the book are at best 'lukewarm' in their assessment in that thread.

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You have held up a handful of individual pilots generalizations and some anecdotes made under unknown conditions. They could have been circling the controller station for all we know.


A handful is greater then the 1 source you offered, Schmid via Isby.

I don't  have time right to dig through my books but I can sure post more then a 'handful' of examples.

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once more all the technical facts and science backs up Schmids conclusions.


Your 'technical facts' shows nothing that every doesn't already know. Your conclusions OTOH are the issue.

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Galland also recognized the weakness of the system. According to him, commanding just 10 units in the air from the same HQ was a "serious problem" to control. Had the war continued, equipment was in development which would have allowed for up to 50 units to be controlled at short notice. However this never made it into operation.


Galland was one of the biggest:

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So, the oarsman complains about his boat.


He blamed eveyone and everything but rarely acknowledged his own failings. Let's hope Schmid is a little more credible.

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Had the war continued, equipment was in development which would have allowed for up to 50 units to be controlled at short notice.


More nonsense, the allies were well ahead of the LW technical curve in terms of ECM. A more advanced radio would not have made a bit of difference in LW operational strategy.

Angus,

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A good read?


The book Crumpp is talking about (and the only book) is the one discussed in that thread. There's a link to it up further in the thread in one Crumpp's posts.

Offline Crumpp

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How good were German a/c radios?
« Reply #78 on: January 27, 2006, 08:21:46 PM »
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More nonsense, the allies were well ahead of the LW technical curve in terms of ECM. A more advanced radio would not have made a bit of difference in LW operational strategy.


Wotan's opinion.  Actually that is one point most them agree on.  Allied ECM had little effect and did not hinder operations.

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Not everyone thinks Isby's book is well done, some think it was 'adequate' and that's what that thread shows. Interestingly enough those writing on behalf of the book are at best 'lukewarm' in their assessment in that thread.


Your main argument was that Isby's work was Isby's words filtering and reinterpreting Schmids observations.

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Wotan says:
The information was compiled from post war interviews / interrogations contained in Schmid's file. The data is compiled, filtered and interpreted by the author. That's the some total of Schmid's contribution.


Which is complete fiction you made up to try and discredit Schimds observations because it does not fit your opinion.

It is Isby's lack of synthesis that causes some contention.

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Isby says:
My goal was never to do synthesis. I was not paid for #$%ing synthesis! Nor was it my objective. People want to hear from those who were involved at the time as well as those who have the benefit of 60 years work. It was to select and present a group of documents in their historical context, raise warning flags where approrpriate, and provide an annotated bibliography and description of the authors.

You get all of this for less than a xerox copy of the original documents, plus pretty pictures and maps.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=1874&page=2


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A handful is greater then the 1 source you offered, Schmid via Isby.


Actually there are quite a few with the same opinion.  Schmids was the only one I posted.

I would say David Isby's sources are in a much better position to judge the system they used daily to command the Luftwaffe Dayfighters than a few anecdotes from pilots who hear radios working.

Especially since your demonstrated weak grasp of radio theory does not seem to understand the science and technical facts back up there conclusions.  Your fandom clouds your vision, Wotan.

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Let's hope Schmid is a little more credible.


Oh probably not Wotan.  You have it nailed on the head.  They all have no credability and in a few hours surfing the net you have proved what utter idiots they were.

 :lol

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: January 27, 2006, 08:33:27 PM by Crumpp »

Offline Bruno

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How good were German a/c radios?
« Reply #79 on: January 28, 2006, 07:46:27 AM »
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Wotan's opinion. Actually that is one point most them agree on. Allied ECM had little effect and did not hinder operations.


Yeah they flew around with their R/T ordered off just for the hell of it. The allies weren't monitoring their radios, triangulation transmissions or jamming them, they didn't need to because everyone knew that the LW radios didn't work...  :rolleyes:

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Your main argument was that Isby's work was Isby's words filtering and reinterpreting Schmids observations.


Mr. Isby states:

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David Isby is the editor of Fighting the Bombers, The Luftwaffe Fighter Force, Fighting the Invasion and Fighting the Breakout .


Filtering and interpreting is what an Editor does. It is he who structures the book into 'historical context'. The Editor is the one who decides on what's important to include or to exclude as extraneous etc...

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Actually there are quite a few with the same opinion. Schmids was the only one I posted.

I would say David Isby's sources are in a much better position to judge the system they used daily to command the Luftwaffe Dayfighters than a few anecdotes from pilots who hear radios working.


Read that thread, see what folks like Tony Williams and SES say about the 'sources'.

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Especially since your demonstrated weak grasp of radio theory does not seem to understand the science and technical facts back up there conclusions. Your fandom clouds your vision, Wotan.


I posted nothing on 'radio theory'[?]. Everything I posted in regards to an 'amplifier' is correct and shown to be so by your own source...

Nothing you posted contradicts that.

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Oh probably not Wotan. You have it nailed on the head. They all have no credability and in a few hours surfing the net you have proved what utter idiots they were.


That is yet to be seen. I will judge that once the book arrives. As for the credibility of those things attributed to Schmid, it was pointed out in that thread by Isby:

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German language versions of most of the documents do not currently exist. While the US Army Foreign Military Studies series and the US Air Force Karlshrue studies were prepared in German laguage versions and then translated (with significant exceptions), this was not the case with many of the earlier efforts. Any German language versions were apparently considered working papers and did not make it into the archival files or onto the microfilm where they have rested since 1945.


He didn't have access to most of the original german language documents.

As SES in his replies points out:

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The interrogations seem to have been conducted in German by interrogators, who did not have a good understanding of many of the subjects they asked questions about. Bluntly put: They asked stupid questions and got silly answers.

Subsequently the reports were translated to English by translators, who did not have a good grasp of operational notions or German military terminology.


and later writes:

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If the original German transcripts, devoid of spelling errors, erroneous geographical locations etc., had been published, the book would have been of value as a collection of source material. Now it suffers from a translation, which can only be graded D minus, and some of the interrogated personnel had an incorrect perception of facts and events. These accounts cannot be trusted without cross reference to original German documents on the same subject.


If you cling to Isby's book as the end all, 'word of God' on this subject then its fair game to point out that not everyone shares your opinion.

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Oh probably not Wotan. You have it nailed on the head. They all have no credability and in a few hours surfing the net you have proved what utter idiots they were.


Surf the net? It was through your extensive googling that you came up with that useless and pointless 'radio theory' crap that has little to do with anything posted in this thread.

Offline Crumpp

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How good were German a/c radios?
« Reply #80 on: January 28, 2006, 09:50:36 AM »
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that useless and pointless 'radio theory' crap that has little to do with anything posted in this thread.


Wotan,

I have been sending message around the world for 30 years on that "useless and pointless" radio theory.  It is obvious you do not grasp the technical intricacies.  Many of the statements you have made in this thread are contrary to the science.

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German language versions of most of the documents do not currently exist.


That is because they are allied documents, Wotan, not Luftwaffe.  They are the post war de-briefs and POW interrogations of Luftwaffe personnel from the end of the war.   IMHO they have a large degree of creditability.  They give the reader a picture from the perspective of the Germans.

I am not going to argue about Isby's book.  People can read the link.  As was already posted on another board, this Richards guy has done this kind of thing before to others.  The only reason it concerns you is the fact you are losing the argument.

He has a PhD in History and feels anyone who does not meet those qualifications is not capable of producing a quality history text.

Baloney.  The vast majority of the aviation history books and periodicals are written and published by enthusiast not historians.   Many of them do a much better job too.  I have purchased far too many "picture books" or "my theory of how it happened" books.  

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Filtering and interpreting is what an Editor does.


Too many "Historians" do not separate fact from supposition in their work.  Isby at least respects the reader enough to do so in his works.  I plan on doing exactly the same.  What I "think" will be clearly delineated from what I know to be fact.

Although I love History and very much respect the work that goes into getting a PhD.  I count many advanced degreed Historians among my friends.  Friends who help me tremendously with my own research.  Many of them went into the field because of a passion for History.  Let's be real though, many others went into the field because it was the quickest and easiest degree to get.  The History majors were far from the last bastion of the Ivory Tower.  It is a field where an advanced degree is a necessity to eat.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=1874&page=2

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Read that thread, see what folks like Tony Williams and SES say about the 'sources'.


Sure, I absolutely agree with Tony Williams.  Great example of the point he is making is the use of GM-1 and C3-Enspritzung together in my research or 100/150-grade extensive use.  Both are areas in which there is plenty of documentation, photos, and "facts" to make a case of operational adoption that may not be true.  I have documents ordering the use of the BMW801TH in early 1943.  Did that happen??

Documents must be carefully weighed in context with events and cross referenced with other documentation.

In this case, the author does not violate anything as he makes no supposition and offers up the documentation with the original context unedited.

They are the primary sources almost all published works use as well.

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If the original German transcripts, devoid of spelling errors, erroneous geographical locations etc., had been published, the book would have been of value as a collection of source material. Now it suffers from a translation, which can only be graded D minus, and some of the interrogated personnel had an incorrect perception of facts and events. These accounts cannot be trusted without cross reference to original German documents on the same subject.


True but this statement invalidates every non-German publication in existence.  For example, we have at least 5 different translations of the FW-190 Flugzeug-handbook.  All of them have differences and even native Germans will argue over the exact meanings of the original German.  Not a very valid point in my book and simply points out the inherent fallacy of second and third hand knowledge.  My advice would be learn to speak German so you can join in with the Native speakers and argue.  

Better yet, go talk to someone who actually at the event or used the equipment, like Schmid.

Wotan you obviously do not understand the difference between existence and effectiveness.

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Yeah they flew around with their R/T ordered off just for the hell of it. The allies weren't monitoring their radios, triangulation transmissions or jamming them, they didn't need to because everyone knew that the LW radios didn't work...



Nowhere did I say the allied ECM capability did not exist, I said it was not effective according to those who were subjected to it.




All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Angus

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How good were German a/c radios?
« Reply #81 on: January 28, 2006, 05:48:54 PM »
This Crumpp:
"That is because they are allied documents, Wotan, not Luftwaffe. They are the post war de-briefs and POW interrogations of Luftwaffe personnel from the end of the war. IMHO they have a large degree of creditability. They give the reader a picture from the perspective of the Germans"

Is a very honest, and very very thought out statement from you, and I wholeheartedly agree.

I get kicked about for using anecdotes from post war autobiographies too much to support a point, but I cannot avoid being a bit sceptical on German statements made in the height of Nazi power, where the wrong word could actually flush you down the ladder, all the way to rot front or further.
The LW staff that joined later on with NATO for instance, have given a very good description of so many items within the WW2 era, - their world, - and this time, there was all to gain and nothing to loose.
Free and undisturbed transmission that time ;)
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Bruno

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How good were German a/c radios?
« Reply #82 on: January 28, 2006, 05:49:42 PM »
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I have been sending message around the world for 30 years on that "useless and pointless" radio theory. It is obvious you do not grasp the technical intricacies. Many of the statements you have made in this thread are contrary to the science.


Quote those 'many statements'... All you posted about 'radio theory' is copy-n-pasted from the web links you dug up while googling.

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That is because they are allied documents, Wotan, not Luftwaffe. They are the post war de-briefs and POW interrogations of Luftwaffe personnel from the end of the war. IMHO they have a large degree of creditability. They give the reader a picture from the perspective of the Germans.


The initial interviews and interrogations were done in German then translated to English and published in the various 'studies'. The originals can no longer be located. The parts we are concerned with (chapters 6 - 8 in the book) can be found in 'USAFE Posthostilities Investigation, German Air Defenses, AFHRA, file no. 519.601' as noted in your post of the chapters.

Kitchens overall opinion of the value of Isby's work isn't what is in contention. Since you made Isby's book the 'last word' on this subject then its perfectly reasonable to explore what value it has to this discussion.

If as SES suggests (and I will find when the book arrives) it is full of:

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They asked stupid questions and got silly answers.


and bad and inaccurate translations then its value is meaningless as the 'end all source' you seem to think it is...

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Sure, I absolutely agree with Tony Williams. Great example of the point he is making is the use of GM-1 and C3-Enspritzung together in my research or 100/150-grade extensive use. Both are areas in which there is plenty of documentation, photos, and "facts" to make a case of operational adoption that may not be true.


So you finally admit GM-1 was never serialized? I, and others, told you that 2 1/2 years ago and you argued just as hard that it was as you are arguing in this thread... Should I check back in 2 1/2 years to see if you changed positions on this subject?

FYI:

They spanked you in that other thread about 8th AF usage of 150 grade fuel. While I agree that the evidence for widespread 150 grade usage by the 8th is weak, you certainly didn't mount a convincing argument in that thread.

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Documents must be carefully weighed in context with events and cross referenced with other documentation.


That's right, and Isby himself doesn't say his work is the 'end all source' you claim it is. He states:

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My goal was never to do synthesis. I was not paid for #$%ing synthesis! Nor was it my objective. People want to hear from those who were involved at the time as well as those who have the benefit of 60 years work. It was to select and present a group of documents in their historical context, raise warning flags where approrpriate, and provide an annotated bibliography and description of the authors.


There's nothing wrong with that, especially if the book is cheaper and quicker then ordering the original documents. But as Adam in that thread says:

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To whatever degree, those of us who frequent this board are of a learned background and similarly such publications as Fighting the Bombers and Luftwaffe and the War at Sea sahould be seen as a necessary and acceptable part of the overall study of history. Whether we like it or not the writtings of Galland, Donitz, Hitler, Churchill or whoever are necessary aspects of history and as such deserve their place - untouched and uninterpreted by modern authors, historians, "exerts" or enthusiasts alike, despite - or perhaps because of - their short-falls and misrepresentations (Look at Churchill and his recounting of Dieppe). Without the coloured views such as Churchill's multi-volume works on the Second World War, Galland's First and the Last, Knockes, I Flew for the Fuhrer, etc all history would be lkeft with would be the likes of Mr Anotn (non-personal) that can only view the world with annotated bibliographies and footnotes. History is not black an white, rather it is coloured by the subjective understanding and intepretations placed upon it by the evidence left behind. Evidence such as that which was edited and published by Mr. Isby.


The question in this thread isn't whether or not works like this are 'a necessary and acceptable part of the overall study of history'. What is important, in the context of this discussion, is determining the value of the information contained in such a book as 'the end all source' as you present it. Until I readthe book all I have is 'your word' on it.

Whether or not Kitchens dismisses the work out of hand due to Isby's lack of PhD is of much less importance to this discussion.

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Nowhere did I say the allied ECM capability did not exist, I said it was not effective according to those who were subjected to it.


The image you scanned doesn't say anything about 'effectiveness' it says:

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(f) The absence of large scale jamming and deceptive radio activity.


Jamming and 'deceptive radio activity' weren't used on a 'large scale' (massive jamming, used every mission etc...) but were used and effective when employed. The allies were well ahead of the Germans in terms of ECM. But like with the U-boats it may have been more useful to the allies to have the LW transmitting so they could monitor and triangulate transmissions.

Once the Allied fighters were deployed in advance of the bombers they were able to locate and break up the Gefechtsverbänd as they formed up. I am sure locating these battle formations and destroying then were all apart of the allied strategy.

I am not sure what you want those other scans to convey?

In regards to last scan:

The LW Gefechtsverbänd were envisioned to be about 50-60 plane formations. 10 formations of that size would mean 500-600 fighters. The LW were rarely able to deploy that number of fighters. The Gefechtsverbänd at times would be made of up no more then 20 aircraft. A quick flip through the 'Jadgwaffe: Defending the Reich' and Reschke's 'JG 301/302 Wild Sau' it seems that the average number of LW fighters sent up against Ami bombers was in the range of 200-250.

We can go round and round I guess but I need to read the book. I maybe completely wrong but I doubt it...

Offline Angus

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How good were German a/c radios?
« Reply #83 on: January 28, 2006, 06:07:22 PM »
So, rephrase time?


Brunos Point: LW radios fine, Bodenkontrolle fine.

Crumpp's point: LW radios Garbly, Bodenkontrolle, a slight mess.

My humble point: LW radios not the best, Bodenkontrolle, - not sure yet.

Or?

How about cutting it to simple?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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How good were German a/c radios?
« Reply #84 on: January 28, 2006, 06:14:04 PM »
Oh, as a sidenote, since the RAF's fighter command managed to hold their control relatively accurate on some 150-200 fighters in the air already in 1940, the system being very much in it's infancy, as well as keeping double that number of fighters on standby and under control (11 group vs 12th, 10th and 13th), - - - I tend to think it unlikely that the LW should not be able to level that in 1943-44, especially with 2-3 times the alarm time as a NORM.

Overlooked, over and again.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Crumpp

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How good were German a/c radios?
« Reply #85 on: February 10, 2006, 07:04:30 PM »
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Great example of the point he is making is the use of GM-1 and C3-Enspritzung together in my research


No they tried to use them together as in at the same time.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Knegel

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How good were German a/c radios?
« Reply #86 on: February 11, 2006, 02:01:36 AM »
Hi,

in the lot of replys, did someone answer the initial questions(iam to lazy to real all this)??

"What were the receive/transmit ranges?

- a/c to a/c
- a/c to ground
- ground to a/c

How did they compare to Allied radios?"


Looks to me that Bruno is a bit off topic, cause the question wasnt 'Was the Luftwaffe able to coordinate the Jagdgruppen with the available radio equipment".

If the allied equipment was better, the resulting question would be: " Would the Luftwaffe have been more successfull with the advanced radio equipment?"

Actually comments regarding the sound quality and loud engines are same off topic, as long as the pilot was able to understand understand. Its realy nice that Rall was happy about the better sound quality in the 262, but realy, who care? I never did read anywhere that the radio sound quality in german piston engine fighters was unusable.

Edit: Btw., wasnt the navigation system (placed in the compass) also somewhat a part of the radio system?? Actually i dont know the name of this system, neighter i know exact how it work. Someone told me it point the pilot to the needed direction.

Greetings, Knegel
« Last Edit: February 11, 2006, 02:14:42 AM by Knegel »

Offline Bruno

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How good were German a/c radios?
« Reply #87 on: February 11, 2006, 07:19:51 AM »
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Looks to me that Bruno is a bit off topic, cause the question wasnt 'Was the Luftwaffe able to coordinate the Jagdgruppen with the available radio equipment".


Sure it was:

Angus stated:

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they actuallly sucked


Then Crumpp set out to prove that and added a few claims on his own like:

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Exactly as they [LW GCI] could not coordinate large interception efforts.


and

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Unfortunately this meant that they could rarely attack in mass nor were they flexible in their response. While the allies could communicate with all of their aircraft, the Luftwaffe could not.


and

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The aircraft did not carry a powerful enough receiver to have duplex communications at all times.


I can post more quotes from Crumpp's claims but you would be better off re-reading the thread. The point of contention is whether or not LW radio, as well as command and control, were reliable enough and/or actually 'worked' well enough not to hinder Luftwaffe tactical and strategic operations.

Crumpp used FIGHTING THE BOMBERS: THE LUFTWAFFE'S STRUGGLE AGAINST THE ALLIED BOMBER OFFENSIVE as Edited David C. Isby (Isby is listed as Editor) as his primary source for his claims... I have the book and read most of it but there's nothing contained with in it that changed my points in this thread. You can order / buy USAFE Posthostilities Investigation, German Air Defenses, AFHRA, file no. 519.601 which is what is reproduced in part in Fighting the Bombers in those chapters relevant to this discussion.

Here's another quote by Schmid that can be found in Robert Forsyth's Jagdwaffe Defending the Reich 1944-'45 Vol 5 Sec 3 pg 195:

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Generalleutenant Schmid wrote that:

'...the striking power of the few remaining daylight fighter units assigned to Reichsverteidigung remained unbroken. Whenever weather conditions permitted the concentrated employment in close combat formation in a single area, noteworthy success was achieved in bringing down enemy aircraft and keeping our own losses to a reasonable limit. The success of our defensive operations over Berlin on 6 and 8 March (FYI: LW shot down 349 bombers in March '44) gave ample evidence of the fighting morale of our fighter pilots and of their ability to execute effective combat despite the technical inferiority of their aircraft... If the Reichsverteidigung had 1000-1200 fighters available, it would  doubtless have been in a position to alter the situation in the air, at least by day, in Germany's favor within a ver short period of time, assuming of course, that there was no appreciable increase in American fighters.'  


Crumpp said:

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On a strategic level, the Germans were unable to compete. They could not launch fighters from Holland, Berlin, and France with the idea of controlling them to intercept the bomber stream at a specific point simultaneously.

Why? They needed better radios.


What I have said is that LW radio and command and control was effective enough given the size of their available forces. A 'better radio' would have made little or no difference in how the war progressed through '44. The LW were never able to compete with Allied numbers and those lack of numbers are what limited the LW strategy (that and the stupidity of On-High) . On innumerable occasions the LW were able to concentrate what fighters they had, all through out 44, on sections of the Allied bomber streams and cause considerable losses. They were able to do this because their radios and command and control systems worked well enough.

One other thing Willi Unger of 11./JG 3 said that one of the major hindrances of the LW defensive strategy was that the lack of the total number of day fighters meant that  Reichsverteidigung units were 'scattered across the Reich'. As such they had to fly long distances to reach the bombers and / or to form up with other units. Many times LW fighters ran low on fuel before they made contact, or intercepted the bombers late, or missed them all together.

Unger wrote:

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The operational bases of our fighter units in Reichsverteidigung were spread all over Germany. Attempts to maintain strength at critical times and in critical areas were made by the rapid deployment of fighters to northern or southern Germany. Several Gruppen from various airfields would combine in the air and were then led from the ground to attack the approaching bombers. This did not always work. The bombers often cheated by flying towards one town then changing course to bomb a completely different target. As the endurance of our fighters flying with an auxiliary drop tank was a maximum of 2.5 hours, we were often forced to break off. There was no question of German fighters having the advantage, only disadvantages, since the numbers of American escort fighters were far superior to us and they also operated at higher altitude.


My point being is that better radios would have changed none of that.

Offline Crumpp

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How good were German a/c radios?
« Reply #88 on: February 11, 2006, 02:59:00 PM »
My point is the Luftwaffe did not have the technical assest's available to them to turn their control methods into a force mulitplier.

As it was they had to adopt simpler control measures that further divided their already grossly outnumbered forces.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Angus

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How good were German a/c radios?
« Reply #89 on: February 12, 2006, 11:47:11 AM »
Ahem.
The first radio controlled and harmonized Radar guided interception of the war was the LW. In 1939.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)