Rivets that don't meet spec.

[Jimdandy]

 

Originally posted by funked:
Jimdandy I'm referring to the expense.  They could inspect every last spec on every last part of an airliner but the cost would be ridiculous.  That kind of thing is only done for aircraft where cost is no object, e.g. the Space Shuttle.

I still don't get it. I understand that they aren't going to disassemble the plane down to it's individual parts and inspect it every time. What I'm asking is where was the QC? Inferior parts should never be put on a plane or any public transportation for that matter. No one expects the inspector to do anything but his standard inspection. If he sees something during his standard inspection he better repot it. The problem I'm referring to must have occurred as a long chain of QC screw ups beginning at the factory. The system is supposed to be set up to catch those kind of mistakes before exorbitant amounts of money need to be spent to correct it. And long before anyone gets hurt (As far as I know the problem doesn't exist and noone has been hurt.) That is why all the spec's have been put in place and why all of the QC people are there to check them. I only posted this to fish for information on a RUMOR that I herd. I have NO IDEA, NONE, if it actually happened or not. I was hoping beyond hope that with all of the other plane nuts on here there was someone else that had heard it or knew it to be fact or fiction. If they could prove or disprove it. If a batch of bad rivets has gone out and has been used to build planes it's not a good thing. I know for a fact that if that has occurred we wouldn't be talking one or two rivets in a plane. We would be talking about major sections if not the whole thing. Aircraft manufacturers don't go down to the local hard ware store and buy a box of rivets. When they buy rivets they buy lots in train car loads.

[AKDejaVu]

 

What I'm asking is where was the QC?

Erm.. you ever try to QC a rivet?  Any idea how the Airlines would enforce these inspections?

Most of this is done at the supplier level.  The airlines have strict specs that they require the suppliers to meet.  They send inpsectors to ensure that rules are in place to ensure the standards are met.  It is just difficult to have the inspector there when the mistake is made.

These things happen.  When they do, it is important that everyone focus on making them not happen again.

BTW, it would not suprise me if EVERY rivet in a jet was inspected at assembly for proper installation and fit.  Just what made the rivet not meet spec is not always readily aparent.  Its not like they are checking for alloy content on them on the assembly line.

AKDejaVu

[Jimdandy]

 

Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Erm.. you ever try to QC a rivet?  Any idea how the Airlines would enforce these inspections?

Most of this is done at the supplier level.  The airlines have strict specs that they require the suppliers to meet.  They send inspectors to ensure that rules are in place to ensure the standards are met.  It is just difficult to have the inspector there when the mistake is made.

These things happen.  When they do, it is important that everyone focus on making them not happen again.

BTW, it would not surprise me if EVERY rivet in a jet was inspected at assembly for proper installation and fit.  Just what made the rivet not meet spec is not always readily apparent.  Its not like they are checking for alloy content on them on the assembly line.

AKDejaVu

I know how the paper trail of QC runs. I never said that they could find a QC stamp on a rivet. What I did say was that it was a long line of mistakes that started at the manufacturer. I did forget to mention that it was the material that was inferior. I don't think anyone can just look at a rivet or put a set of go no-go gauges on them and tell if they are or aren't the right material. That would have to be done with testing. I think that if this has happened the fault lies at the manufacturer of the rivet for sending the wrong material with the right Certificate of Compliance. I do think that it should be a lesson to be learned from and corrected so it doesn't happen in the future, that is only obvious. I would like to see random testing of materials on site for structural components of aircraft. It will be no consolation to the families of the people in the plane crash that the right cert was sent. It isn't a perfect world but this would be a big screw up if it has happened. And we are only talking about a RUMOR.

BTW why should anyone defend the building of an inferior piece of public transportation. Or be saying that these things just happen. Especially when were only talking about a RUMOR. I'm trying to find out if anyone has heard or can confirm this rumor. I didn't intend to be defending the right to ride in a safe plane. Or to see a hole bunch of excuses as to why things like these happen. I know how things like this happen. So do you. Am I addressing some nervous QC people defending the fact that there human and can make mistakes? Of course they can. The problem occurs when no one reports the screw up or goes out and fixes it after it has been reported. If it is a RUMOR then by default someone knows it happened. What I want to find out is if the rumor is true. I completely see the line of mistakes that could cause this to happen. Lets get off the defense of the QC and the manufacturer and answer my question. Have you heard this rumor or not?



[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-16-2001).]

[funked]

 

I still don't get it.

Agreed!
*poof*

[AKDejaVu]

Erm... lets revisit your attempt to verify a rumor concerning the manufacture of aircraft using substandard rivets in an Aces High O'Club forum.  Even if someone had heard the rumor.. 2 people hearing a rumor does not make it any less of a rumor.

Maybe we could get one of the Boeing guys to come in here and tell us they use substandard rivets all the time.

Really, you just presented the rumor for a certain level of shock realism.  When it comes to commercial (not public btw) aircraft, you don't even want to start looking at real safety issues.  You'd never fly again.  Assembly using out of spec rivets is much less of a concern to me than maintenance done by sub-par workers.  I've heard horror stories from people that have been there.

AKDejaVu

[Gunthr]

After smelling strong avgas fumes during the  return trip from Oshkosh, Wisconson back to Detroit, Michigan one year, I removed the fuel tank from my Aeronca 7AC Champ and found a leak where it had been chafing on a sheet metal screw... for God knows how long.
 
I decided to repair the tank myself to save some cash, and I would ask my AP mech buddy to sign off on it. I drained the fuel tank (13 gal cap) and  using a garden hose, I filled it completely up with water 3 times to make absolutely certain that there could be no gasoline fumes left in the tank. I then leaned over the filler neck, lit a torch and got blown backasswards, completely off the stool I had been sitting on. My hair and eyebrows was really burnt, but I was ok...  just a little bit embarrassed and a little bit wiser for the experience. The sheet metal screw that caused the problem was put in by the previous owner who, like a nitwit, was trying to save some money by doing some sheet metal work himself... heh heh

 
Gunthr

[Jimdandy]

 

Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Erm... lets revisit your attempt to verify a rumor concerning the manufacture of aircraft using substandard rivets in an Aces High O'Club forum.  Even if someone had heard the rumor.. 2 people hearing a rumor does not make it any less of a rumor.

Maybe we could get one of the Boeing guys to come in here and tell us they use substandard rivets all the time.

Really, you just presented the rumor for a certain level of shock realism.  When it comes to commercial (not public btw) aircraft, you don't even want to start looking at real safety issues.  You'd never fly again.  Assembly using out of spec rivets is much less of a concern to me than maintenance done by sub-par workers.  I've heard horror stories from people that have been there.

AKDejaVu

Your right. The fact is I was just bored and looking for something to do. I heard it and thought I'd throw it out there. I never figured anyone would even reply much less get passionate about it. Secondly I never thought anyone would start trying to do damage control and defend a rumor. It's been more interesting than I had predicted.

[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-16-2001).]

[Duckwing6]

Well i can tell you it happens sometimes that BOEING sends out an telex asking for removal of certain rivets and or bolts .. because they figured someoen used the wrong grip length etc...

thinking about how MANY rivets, bolts, hi-locks are in one of tese birds tho it's a pretty smal percentage  

DW6

(still believes in Boeing A/C  )