Seafire Project

[Bullethead]

After I finish my clapped-out Malta spit5, I'm going to do this clapped-out seafire AC-C:

(photo from Merlin-Powered Spitfires, Warbird Tech Series, Volume 35, by Kev Darling)

This plane appears to have been partially repainted while disassembled.  After the new light paint was applied and the plane reassembled, it looks like they repainted the roundels, squad codes, and serial number on top of the overspray.

Looks to me like AC-C originally had a standard pattern just like AC-D behind it.  The repaint, however, seems only to have been of the lighter color, which was applied heavily where it originally was, but with substantial overspray over the dark color, which was not repainted.  The dark band behind the cockpit seems to have been totally covered, with the new paint fading out in an irregular line across the older light color below the canopy before dropping down over the fillet.  Also, the dark on the fin and under the horizontal is all gone (except around the edges of the fin), but they left the dark on the lower rear between the C and the tail, although with about 8" of light overspray around the edge.  All this was done while the stab was off the plane, as it appears to still have its original paint, including the stub of the fin in front of the flash.

The upper wings aft of the main spar seem to have had the same treatment, with heavy new light color where it originally was and lots of overspray over the old dark color.  Like on the fin, the new paint doesn't quite reach the edge of the wing.  The leading edge, however, looks to have the original paint on it still.

I've got a couple questions I'd like ya'lls' opinions on.  Think this thing was originally that naval purple/green/sky combo?  What color do you think this new paint is?  Same as before, just fresher, or some light gray?  And what about that dark strip on the fin leading edge above the flash?  Just a big missed spot of the old light color, or some dark primer over a repair?

[Kev367th]

Should be able to help -

736 Squadron formed 1943 as an Air Combat School.

Used old Seafire Ib's which were converted RAF Vb's. (1942)

RAF 1942 scheme would have been ocean grey/dark green/medium sea grey.

FAA would have overpainted extra dark sea grey/dark slate grey/sky

What your probably seeing is a mix of repairs, bad touch ups, and maybe even a bad original respray or parts of the old RAF colors coming through.

So you have this originally


Oversprayed to this


I'll bet the bit on the tail is the original dark green showing through.

[edit] Just checked Dark Slate Grey is a little lighter than Dark Green. So assuming that its faded over time I would bet on the original Dark Green showing through being the dark band on the tail.
It actually looks like the whole aircraft is badly faded and worn and the original RAF scheme is showing through in lots of places.
Would guess the lighter areas are the FAA scheme faded badly, the darker areas where the original RAF scheme is showing through.

[Squire]

Would be nice to get some genuine Seafire IIc skins. I have some good info that I can send to anybody who wants a scan of my "Profiles" book, it has some very good info on Seafire IIc markings, with details on paint and some close ups of detail. Its made for modellers.

[Bullethead]

Kev367th said:

It actually looks like the whole aircraft is badly faded and worn and the original RAF scheme is showing through in lots of places.  Would guess the lighter areas are the FAA scheme faded badly, the darker areas where the original RAF scheme is showing through.

Thanks for the input, although I have a different opinion .  Here's a different version of the pic with my interpretations, which might help in discussing this.  I drew the dotted lines a little off where I think they really are, so you can hopefully see the actual demarkations in the pic.

I think most of the paint is fairly new, given there is no chipping on the leading edge, not any to speak of around the cowling fasteners and edges, and hardly any on the wing walk.  Given that, I'd assume it's FAA colors.  But then the plane was taken apart, with the horizontal tail getting a fesh coat of camo paint, and the rear fuselage and wings aft of the leading edge assembly being oversprayed in some light color.  I'm really curious as to what this overspray color is.  After this overspray, they put on all new roudels, unit codes, and serial number.  Looks like the remains of the original serial number are showing through there on the aft fuselage.

[Bullethead]

Squire said:

Would be nice to get some genuine Seafire IIc skins. I have some good info that I can send to anybody who wants a scan of my "Profiles" book, it has some very good info on Seafire IIc markings, with details on paint and some close ups of detail. Its made for modellers.

Sure, I'll take a crack at it.  Send me your favorites and I'll see what I can do.

[Kev367th]

This is definate -

1) All Seafire Ib's were converted from RAF Vb's in 1942.
2) 1942 RAF scheme was dark green and ocean grey uppers over medium sea grey lowers.
3) FAA scheme was dark slate grey and extra dark sea grey uppers over sky lowers.
4) They would have got a repaint in FAA colors.
5) Sqn formed in 1943
6) Aircraft a year old (at least).

From pic
1) Evidence of chipping on rear port wing root on the light color so can't be that new.
2) New serial number is probably be the old one in a different position.
3) Rather than new coat paint on horiz stabs I think they are new replacements. Why bother painting only the horiz stabs?

My thoughts
1) Pretty much what I already stated.
2) Overall condition of the aircraft suggests it is not well maintained surface finish wise. After all it's only a combat training unit.

Still think its a badly faded FAA scheme that is showing the orignal RAF scheme through in some places.

Of course with black and white pic, who knows .

[edit] Apparently it could have been as late as Nov 1942 till early 1943 before the Ib's were ready, so it may not be as old as I thought, is there a date for the pic?

[Guppy35]

Off the IWM website photo collection.  Wonder if that's your bird behind the one in the foreground.

Never expected to see yellow codes.

[Bullethead]

Guppy35 said:

Off the IWM website photo collection.  Wonder if that's your bird behind the one in the foreground.  Never expected to see yellow codes.

Wonderful pic!  Great find!  Thanks muchos!  This answers several of my questions.

My thinking is now as follows:  This color pic is somewhat earlier than the B&W I posted, showing the planes prior to the repainting evident in my pic.  In the color, that looks like FAA camo to me, and the serial number is in the lower position, along with ROYAL NAVY.  

Then in my pic, it looks like all the planes have been repainted at least partially as to camo, and given completely new markings on top of it.  This put the serial number up high and erased the ROYAL NAVY.  The furthest seafire hasn't yet had the codes applied over the new paint but is otherwise complete.  The middle one is finished, and the closest one, that I'm going to skin, looks like a rushed job.  It's got some sort of light paint (primer or just a light batch of camo color?) over the old markings, then the new markings put on that before camo job was finished, leaving the old serial number and ROYAL NAVY partially exposed under the light-color overspray.

OK, that clears up a lot.  Still, the big question to me is, what is the light color sprayed over so much of AC-C?

As to the yellow codes, I'm pretty sure that was standard for training units.

Thanks again.

[Squire]

The yellow codes were for FAA training squadrons only.

Sry for the late reply Bullethead, ya, I will fire something off give me a day, rl bz right now.

The default AH2 Seafire IIc has the correct camo and marking style for a combat unit a/c, but I will try to find some others that can be done.

[Bullethead]

I think it's appropriate to make a training unit skin for some flavor of spit.  After all, they're all like using training wheels on a bike anyway .

[Bullethead]

OK, I've worked on this a bit more and think I've answered the question as to what the light overspray is.  I assumed it was basically primer so used a light shade kinda like the Brit "Interior Green".  I think I'm on the right track, but of course it still needs tweaking (plus all the rework of panel lines and such).

What do you think?

[Krusty]

Wow, that's pretty damn good!