Author Topic: Gas $5 a gallon in Europe?  (Read 3391 times)

Offline AKDejaVu

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Gas $5 a gallon in Europe?
« Reply #90 on: September 21, 2000, 11:05:00 AM »
 
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But am I right in saying that to go to Harvard, Yale etc, it costs a lot more money?

These schools are not more expensive than most private schools.  They aren't necessarily elitist either.  They simply have very high standards for admissions.  They have very tough academic standards once admitted.  A degree from any of these schools is worth its weight in gold for these very reasons.

I'd also throw MIT in there on the engineering side of the house.  Johns Hopkins on the medical side of the house.

There are at least 6 colleges in Oregon alone that are more expensive than any of these schools.  Probably as many as 10.

I can't quite put a finger on just why certain schools cost so much.  But, in a capitalist society, you charge what you can get a way with.  Let the county and state colleges handle the rest.

Fortunately, schools like Harvard, Stanford and so on aren't purely capitalistic

AKDejaVu

Offline AKDejaVu

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Gas $5 a gallon in Europe?
« Reply #91 on: September 21, 2000, 11:08:00 AM »
Also, Dowding...

There is a fine line between a stealth tax and a deterence tax.  One is meant to be hidden.  The other is meant to discourage use of the product.  By the way.. how much does a pack of cigarettes run in England?

Its really no different than a tax on electricity.

AKDejaVu

[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 09-21-2000).]

Offline Ripsnort

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Gas $5 a gallon in Europe?
« Reply #92 on: September 21, 2000, 11:11:00 AM »
Oil was $38 buck a barrel yesterdays price, all time high, its gonna get worse before it gets better....(For those of you that don't remember, it was $19/barrel just 2 years ago)

Offline Toad

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Gas $5 a gallon in Europe?
« Reply #93 on: September 21, 2000, 12:40:00 PM »
 
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Originally posted by Dowding:
The point about the petrol tax is that it doesn't tax everyone, unlike say income tax...but they have to be fair and tax the whole population...

As you say, you can go to State universities in the US. But am I right in saying that to go to Harvard, Yale etc, it costs a lot more money? Here, it doesn't work like that - Oxford and Cambridge can be attained whatever background you come from.

I don't know about England's Income Tax, but here in the US it doesn't tax everyone and those it does tax it doesn't tax at the same rate. So that sort of contradicts your logic here. Not everyone is contributing equally to these societal benefits. (Note: I'm not debating the rights/wrongs of progressive income tax with an "exclusionary" level of low income. We can do that later.   )

Apparently, what you are the most upset about is the RATE of taxation, according to what you just posted. Hey, remember, there's no such thing as a "free" lunch. You want all those goodies, someone has to pay.

Are you saying all your Universities are as good as Oxford or Cambridge? Thus ALL your potential students have a "right" to a free education of Oxford or Cambridge quality?

No, more likely, SOME go to Oxford or Cambridge just as SOME here go to Yale or Harvard, which are more expensive but not all that much. The idea that those schools are the only place in either country to deliver a quality education is ludicrous, however.

If your country decides to subsidize Oxford and Cambridge students more than my country subsidizes Harvard or Yale students...then you're getting what you pay for and so am I. Pay your gas tax and smile that you have such a good system. I'll pay my gas tax and I'll smile that I have the system that suits me. In BOTH cases, the schools are at max enrollment so we wouldn't be producing a greater quantity of illustrious scholars in any event

There's plenty of government loan and aid programs here for college students that NEED it. Probably not as much in the way of "free" government handouts here as you have there, though.

I'm glad you like your system. I like ours; any motivated person can achieve a university degree.
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Offline Maverick

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Gas $5 a gallon in Europe?
« Reply #94 on: September 21, 2000, 06:43:00 PM »
Dowding and St Santa,

The education system in the states is free.... up to the university level. The first 12 years (Elementary or primary if you will, and High School or secondary) are provided by the taxes usually based on property values. In AZ I get an itemized tax bill (just got it too and it went up   )that says which school districts I helped pay for and how much went to each. There are other areas that share my taxes but this is the main contributor to the free education. After secondary, or High School, further education is an option. This is the level of education I was refering to as far as the "slackers" I mentioned were concerned.

If the student meets the admissions criteria (ie. grades) they can be admitted. payment for that education can be made using loans, scholarships, grants, savings or a job. Not much different than what you were talking about. Sure there are criteria to maintain standing in the universities. Diploma's past High School will not be granted on the basis of seat time. There is currently a movement in US education circles to now require an exam proving you learned what you were supposed to learn in High School in order to get a real diploma. Those that fail will not get the diploma but a certificate of attendance. Basically a paper saying they occupied a chair for 4 years. This gives employers a better idea of the quality of worker they might be hiring. It also tells universities and colleges that this person didn't cut it in school. Cruel? Maybe, but then there are avenues available to correct this issue when the "student" decides to exert themselves and finish what they should have done in the first place.

Does this make what I posted earlier more understandable to you. We might be closer than what we originally thought.

Mav
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Offline Dowding

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Gas $5 a gallon in Europe?
« Reply #95 on: September 23, 2000, 11:45:00 AM »
First of all - this topic is getting very long ain't it?   I can't play AH anymore because my brother has taken his computer back to uni.   Probably a good thing - I was playing it too much anyway. So I'm using an old laptop with a really, really crappy modem - these long topics just take ages to load up. I think that after 60 posts to a topic, I'll stop adding to it to save me the loading time.  

Right, first things first. AK - I've got no idea how much a packet of studmuffins costs (using the British definition of 'studmuffin' here, before you ask  ). I started smoking at 13 and finished at 15, none too impressed with it. Filthy habit. Besides, by then I had discovered alcohol.

As for income tax vs fuel tax. My point was that income tax at least takes into account circumstance, whereas fuel tax is indescriminate; a community nurse with a Mini pays the same as an industry fat cat and his huge Jaguar. Also, I've started to change my mind about fuel tax in this country, after looking at how things are done on the continent - I don't really want ot go into it here, this topic is long enough as it is!

"Are you saying all your Universities are as good as Oxford or Cambridge? Thus ALL your potential students have a "right" to a free education of Oxford or Cambridge quality?"

Not in the slightest. What I am saying is that they have the right to an education at Oxbridge, if they meet the criteria of entry, regardless of background. In terms of the small amount of tuition you pay for, this is the same regardless of which university you study at; this is true even though the cost to the government of studying at Cambridge is higher than, say, Oxford Brookes (a poor university that is not part of Oxford University itself).

As for the quality of UK universities - some are generally better than others. But some departments within a particular institution are also better than others - for instance the Physics Department at the University of Durham, where I studied, got the highest possible rating in a recent assessment. In fact, on a par with Oxbridge (if not better, I can't remember exactly).

Mav - I took it you meant that people qualify regardless of how well they do at a particular course. I see what you mean now - I thought it sounded a bit unfair to give the 'slackers' the same qualification as the hard-working pupils!  
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Offline AKDejaVu

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Gas $5 a gallon in Europe?
« Reply #96 on: September 23, 2000, 12:53:00 PM »
 
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Not in the slightest. What I am saying is that they have the right to an education at Oxbridge, if they meet the criteria of entry, regardless of background. In terms of the small amount of tuition you pay for, this is the same regardless of which university you study at; this is true even though the cost to the government of studying at Cambridge is higher than, say, Oxford Brookes (a poor university that is not part of Oxford University itself).

And how is this different from Harvard, Stanford or Princeton?  Anyone can get admittance with good enough grades.  Anyone can get a loan to go based solely on the worth of a degree from these universities.  That person then repays the institution for the service they have provided him.

There really isn't much of a difference between our prestigious universities... so you may want to steer clear of that argument.  At the lower end, however, there is a difference.  Do some research and see what you can find out there.

AKDejaVu

Offline Dowding

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Gas $5 a gallon in Europe?
« Reply #97 on: September 23, 2000, 02:31:00 PM »
 
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
And how is this different from Harvard, Stanford or Princeton?  

There really isn't much of a difference between our prestigious universities... so you may want to steer clear of that argument.  

Do some research and see what you can find out there.

AKDejaVu

Point 1) No idea; wasn't aware that I was saying there was any difference - I was just responding to what someone else thought I meant. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you do pay more to go the more prestigious uni's, right? I was just pointing out that isn't the case here. No judgement was implied.

Point 2) Again, I wasn't aware that I was saying there was a difference between the institutions you name. As I have said before, I couldn't possibly know - I've not been through any of the institutions or know anybody who has.

Regarding the costs of going to different types of uni. - I asked you guys if my assumptions were right.

Point 3) To be honest, I don't think I'm interested enough in the subject to warrant more research.   It's been interesting though, guys, to hear how its done over there - told me alot I didn't know, so thanks.  

[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 09-23-2000).]
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Offline AKDejaVu

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Gas $5 a gallon in Europe?
« Reply #98 on: September 23, 2000, 03:57:00 PM »
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but you do pay more to go the more prestigious uni's, right?

You are wrong.  I've told you that in previous posts.

Many universities are more expensive than the "prestigious" ones.  They aren't the cheapest, but they are beat out quite regularly.  Basically, they cost about what any non-junior colleges costs.  I doubt there is much difference between 4-8 years at University of Portland an Harvard.  Maybe UoP is a tad bit more expensive.

AKDejaVu