Author Topic: Teddy had it so right! Not Kennedy, but Roosevelt!  (Read 935 times)

Offline Eagler

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Teddy had it so right! Not Kennedy, but Roosevelt!
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2006, 01:09:29 AM »
of course he would deny it.
I think you proved my point - thanks
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Offline Suave

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Teddy had it so right! Not Kennedy, but Roosevelt!
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2006, 04:28:25 AM »
He contradicts himself in the first sentence.

"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed.."

Typical nonsensical political "vote for me" rhetoric. If you don't think about what he says, it makes sense.

Forced conformity, or "assimilation" is unamerican. The ATF might disagree with me.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2006, 04:31:16 AM by Suave »

Offline Suave

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Teddy had it so right! Not Kennedy, but Roosevelt!
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2006, 04:44:16 AM »
I like his sense of humor though. "When immigrants come to america they should forsake their foreign tongues and speak the language of the land... English!"

Kind of like the propoganda we were taught in elementary school in the early 80s.

"Colombus was the first person to discover america, and he called the people living in america indians, because he thought he was in india."

That one never gets old.

Offline Widewing

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Teddy had it so right! Not Kennedy, but Roosevelt!
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2006, 09:52:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
of course he would deny it.
I think you proved my point - thanks


He denied it because at the time he was supposedly speaking in South Dakota, he was at his home on Long Island.....

Your point was absurd and unprovable because it is unsupported by any facts.

Again, educate yourself about Roosevelt and then you'll be better able to discuss those things you don't like about the man. Most people simply do not understand how great an influence TR was in his day, nor do they understand how is influence affects their lives even today. He won the Nobel Peace Prize, the Pulitzer Prize, and worked around a stubborn congress to create our vast national park system. Then there's the Panama Canal. The list of his accomplishments is staggering.

While you contemplate TR, remember also that there was a vastly different culture in this country when he was President. Even as late as the middle 1900s, TR was still considered a radically progressive thinker on social and ecological issues.

With regard to his opinion of American Indians, did you know that Chiricahua Apache Chief Geronimo rode in Roosevelt's 1905 inaugural parade and was his guest at the inaugural ball? Four other prominent Chiefs rode in the parade as well. His critics thought this nothing more than a political stunt. However, Roosevelt very much admired these men and he especially liked the Apache Chief, whom he called a "great leader to his people". They exchanged letters until Geronimo's death in 1909.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline lazs2

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Teddy had it so right! Not Kennedy, but Roosevelt!
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2006, 10:06:37 AM »
TR was my favorite president.  I believe that he is correct about assimilation.  My grandfather came here from scotland as a boy with his father.  they did everything they could to lose the accent because.... even tho they were white... they were slaves the moment they opened their mouth.   They worked in coal mines as vitual slaves... no... worse... slaves were treated better because slaves were owner operator and scotts were just rentals.

Grandfather dumped his accent and moved to Iowa and then kalifornia.

No one is asking immigrants to give up their culture so much as thier idea of how laws and government should be...  they hated their laws and police and governments and yet... they come here and try to turn this country into the same sort of craphole they left.

It is like the people who say communism works and that it just hasn't been done right yet... those people are not welcome so far as I am concerned.

Immigrants should embrace our language and our laws and the meaning of our constitution.

lazs

Offline Maverick

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Teddy had it so right! Not Kennedy, but Roosevelt!
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2006, 11:24:17 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
of course he would deny it.
I think you proved my point - thanks


Translation:

"My mind is made up, don't try to confuse me with facts that say otherwise".  :rolleyes:
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Offline Eagler

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Teddy had it so right! Not Kennedy, but Roosevelt!
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2006, 12:14:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick
Translation:

"My mind is made up, don't try to confuse me with facts that say otherwise".  :rolleyes:


widewing said it himself:
"TR stated that every indian should have the same rights to own land as did the homesteaders; 160 acres for every man who applied for it, be they white, red or black. However, he did not believe that the indian tribes had rights to the western lands beyond this."

now tell me again how much this rough rider loved the indians?
loved them enough to take their land (hint: how was this done? - peacefully? don't think so) and then allow them to sign up (think the average injun could figure that out?) so the US gov could give them a pitance of land, all the while they were being round up and stuck on reservations...

and yes the parades were political IMO

ps

he was correct in stating that anyone living in america should speak english. that was my point, many do not feel that way anymore - it is not PC and is another way "diversity" is killing this country
« Last Edit: February 04, 2006, 12:18:06 PM by Eagler »
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Offline lazs2

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Teddy had it so right! Not Kennedy, but Roosevelt!
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2006, 12:29:58 PM »
Their land?  How was it "their land"?   They took it from each other by force of arms.   TR was gonna give the weak a better shot at owning land than they ever had as tribespeople.  Their was no land ownership in the American indian culture.

lazs

Offline Eagler

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not the point lazs
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2006, 12:34:43 PM »
"[The Sand Creek Massacre was] as righteous and beneficial a deed as ever took place on the frontier."
Theodore Roosevelt

Sand Creek Massacre

TR was not a friend of the american indians
whoever thinks he was should:
"Again, educate yourself about Roosevelt and then you'll be better able to discuss those things you don't like about the man. "

see pages 10 and 11 in James Bradley's Flyboy
« Last Edit: February 04, 2006, 12:43:21 PM by Eagler »
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Offline Widewing

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Re: not the point lazs
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2006, 01:42:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
"[The Sand Creek Massacre was] as righteous and beneficial a deed as ever took place on the frontier."
Theodore Roosevelt

Sand Creek Massacre

TR was not a friend of the american indians
whoever thinks he was should:
"Again, educate yourself about Roosevelt and then you'll be better able to discuss those things you don't like about the man. "

see pages 10 and 11 in James Bradley's Flyboy


With regard to the Sand Creek Massacre, I cannot locate where TR made the reported statement. TR is frequently quoted out of context by ignorant or unscrupulous writers to support their agenda.

For example, TR is often slammed for referring to Indians as "Lazy" and "drunken beggars". If read within its context, you see that TR is describing how "backwoodsmen" viewed the Indians.

TR wrote in Volume two of Winning The West:
"To them he was in peace a lazy, dirty, drunken beggar, whom they despised, and yet whom they feared; for the squalid, contemptible creature might at any moment be transformed into a foe whose like there was not to be found in all the wide world for ferocity, cunning, and blood-thirsty cruelty."

Yet, one author wrote the following, which indicates either remarkable stupidity or a clear cut attempt to deliberately misquote:

"In his book, "The Winning of the West," the American hero and Bigot Theodore Roosevelt wrote that the Indian was a lazy, dirty, drunken beggar, whom the frontiersman despised and yet whom they feared; for the squalid contemptible creature might at any moment be transformed into a foe whose like was not to be found in all the wide world for ferocity, cunning, and bloodthirsty cruelty. Theodore Roosevelt's last term ended in 1909. I am willing to bet that Congress had no intention of correcting this racist view"

It's quite amazing how people will distort facts to support an argument or simply libel the dead. The above is textbook example of taking a section of text and contorting it to suit one's agenda.

I've read Flyboys and found Bradley to be remarkably nearsighted in his analysis of the Roosevelt vis-a-vis his thoughts on the Japanese evils and those done to the American Indian. Bradley's argument is fundamentally flawed as is much of his reasoning. The book is loaded with contridictions and self-righteous bombast. Seriously, Bradley seems to justify Japanese atrocities by comparing them to what happened to the American Indians in the preceeding two centuries. Such an argument is untenable. He also refers to the four presidents portrayed on Mt. Rushmore as "white supremacists", which was not lost on many critics of Flyboys.

I have little regard for Bradley, who cannot write on historical events without framing it within his own social-political agenda.  

You cannot measure historical figures by modern standards of social morals. Historical persons were creatures of their times, and should be judged according to the social standards of those times.

My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: February 04, 2006, 02:12:37 PM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline Eagler

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actually, I could care less what happened 100 years ago )
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2006, 10:38:12 PM »
Bradley is a fruitcake

Widewing
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Offline DREDIOCK

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Re: Re: not the point lazs
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2006, 12:49:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing

You cannot measure historical figures by modern standards of social morals. Historical persons were creatures of their times, and should be judged according to the social standards of those times.

My regards,

Widewing


Absolutely positively 100% correct.

Also remember the Native Americans  in those times were viewed by and large the same as the muslims are now.

Also to note that many of the writers of the time, and the newspaper writers in particular never let the truth stand in the way of a good story.
If it sounded good to them thats what they wrote.
There was far less fact checking by outside parties or accountability then there is now. And there isnt much accountability now.


TR was a remarkable man no doubt. Hard to beleive he started out a a sickly weakling as a child. And we owe alot of what we have and are as a nation to him.

One of my favorite quotes about him was made by some of the people that helped him into office figuring he would be willing to dance on their strings

 "The SOB. We bought him and then he didnt stay bought."

Teddy always did things his own way.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2006, 12:52:37 AM by DREDIOCK »
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Offline FiLtH

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Teddy had it so right! Not Kennedy, but Roosevelt!
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2006, 01:26:19 AM »
I want to be a hermit.

~AoM~

Offline Ghosth

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Teddy had it so right! Not Kennedy, but Roosevelt!
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2006, 07:29:44 AM »
Widewing, well said sir, twice!
I had no idea you were that well read on the subject.

I'm not, but I admit that I'm not an expert.

Eagler, so you and a bunch of your family ride over & kick me & my family out of our houses. Set up house there yourself. How does that give you ownership?
At best all you can be said to be doing is squatting. You don't have clear title, you pay no taxes, your merely in possion.

The indian had no concept of land ownership, which was in many ways a good thing. How can a single person own the sky, the air, the land which stretches boundless around us??

We can use "some" of this view in this day and age.

Yet this view also kept the indian nomadic and tied to the same level of education and ability for 1000's of years.  

Yes some of what happened to the Indian in the US was wrong. It was also as invietable as death and taxes. Geghis Khan was wrong also, yet I don't hear every russian & european clamoring for retribution from him?

Go to any state with more than a single Indian Reservation.
Go from town to town outside those reservations and you'll get an ear full.
North to South, East to West, only the details and the climate change.

The problems are similar thoughout, just as they were in TR's day.

Ohhh and yes, I'm part Indian myself.